Regarding Leadership & LA/ECL of the Leader, not the Cohort

[saucercrab]

I didn't want to intrude in BloodyAx's Leadership threads, as my boggle is a bit different than what he's asking. I know a cohort's LA/ECL counts towards the Cohort Level, but does the leader's LA/ECL (if any) count towards his own Leadership Score? I'm guessing it doesn't... :\

 

[Hair Wax]

I'd say yes, although the rules probably don't support it.

 

[shilsen]

I'm with Hair Wax (how often does one get to say that?).

 

[Jack Simth]

Odd Stuff with Leadership:

That Drow can't have any Drow followers below Leadership Score 15 (requires an ECL 3 follower....), and regardless of how high that Drow gets, the vast majority of it's followers are non-drow (can get a 1st level Drow Cohort, however, with a leadership score of merely 4)

Without counting ECL for leadership, anything with a high LA can't make much use of leadership - an ECL 14 Vampire (6 character levels) with a Charisma score of 18 and no other net modifiers has a Leadership score of only 10, can have only 5 1st level followers, and his cohort is limited to ECL 4 (no vampire cohorts are possible); he's much better off just creating a dozen spawn, except for the minor glitch of moving his coffin around during the day - which mostly only applies to adventurers.

With counting ECL for leadership, High LA can make for some .... interesting combos.
Same Vampire Leader again - this time, his leadership score is 18, he can have a 12th level cohort, and one 4th level follower. Now, his cohort has (up to) 6 more class levels than does the vampire leader - that's twice as many. Moreover, if that cohort is a cleric, well, the vampire turns as though it has 10 hit dice - if the cleric has an effective Charisma score of at least 16, the Cohort can Rebuke the Leader, successfully, EVERY TIME (roll of 1 works). Umm.... who's in control?

Mind you, this type of thing mostly only gets rediculous with high LA templates - but it's something to keep in mind when deciding which way to go.

 

[Corsair]

I recently had a thread on this. By RAW, nothing says that LA counts towards your leadership score, but a number of people have seen reason to count it, as Jack points out in his drow example.

 

[saucercrab]

Hmm, I was guessing that LA/ECL wouldn't apply to the Leadership score, 'cause by RAW, LA/ECL is stated to only apply to [XP to level up] & [starting/average money], of which the Leadership score is neither. 'Course, IIRC, the feat description doesn't refer to HD at all, but merely Character Level.

But most of you think it's reasonable to count it? I can see that, as LA/ECL is supposed to represent additional power/abilities (that aren't counted in HD), & those additional abilities should certainly be able to help to attract followers.

On a related note, what about the thrallherd PrC, in the XPH? It has a psionic pseudo-Leadership ability, which should function similarly...

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Hmm, I was guessing that LA/ECL wouldn't apply to the Leadership score, 'cause by RAW, LA/ECL is stated to only apply to [XP to level up] & [starting/average money], of which the Leadership score is neither. 'Course, IIRC, the feat description doesn't refer to HD at all, but merely Character Level.

The question is whether the rules text on LA / ECL is exhaustive or indicative. If it's exhaustive, you're right: Nothing in the LA text mentions using it for Leadership.

If it's indicative, then you'll notice that everything it describes deals with character advancement - XP and starting cash. The leadership feat is similarly tied to advancement (requires CL 6, leadership score based on CL, allowed cohort level based on CL, etc.). Therefore, Leadership should be tied to ECL, not just CL.

 

[Shin Okada]

I go for by RAW in this case. Not counting LA. May be giving "Special Power +1" modifier at best.

It is unfavorable for high LA races. But it is typical in fictions. A person (or something) with strong inborn capability tend to be arrogant, selfish, too confident, can't trust weaker race, etc. and tend not be a good leader. Hey! Teen Titan's leader is Robin! A human!

 

[saucercrab]

But it is typical in fictions. A person (or something) with strong inborn capability tend to be arrogant, selfish, too confident, can't trust weaker race, etc. and tend not be a good leader.

I seem to remember a tagline I heard somewhere: "challenge your perceptions." So, special abilities make someone special, but not necessarily a dick.

Hey! Teen Titan's leader is Robin! A human!

Hmm, not a really good example, there. Or do you think that the other members are only cohorts/followers? I'd say Robin is more like Batman's cohort...

 

[Ogre Mage]

Hey! Teen Titan's leader is Robin! A human!

Yeah, I'm not sure that's a good example either. They are an iconic superhero team rather than one superhero with 4 cohorts (sidekicks in the Superhero world). I dare you to tell Raven that she is "Robin's sidekick."

Regarding the question at hand, you could argue it either way. I would tend to think that LA does count toward Leadership. That's how we've done it in our game.