Pathfinder 2E Regarding the complexity of Pathfinder 2

Touching the three-action system would kneecap the best thing about the game.

Unfortunately you come across as someone looking at the PF2 action economy with other-edition-glasses on. I am critical of Paizo's game, yes. I am even critical of how artificial the three action model makes "object interaction" (that needed to be allowed as part of movement).

But while I can totally see standing still and spamming basic attacks as unimaginative and boring, Pathfinder 2 is nothing like this. Its monster action model is arguably its greatest success, with many (if not every) monster being enabled to pull off "signature moves" that give it real character, and makes a fight against a "big brute" monster very different than a "skilled weaponmaster" monster.
No, you see, I love the action economy.

I hate making more than one attack for damage.

Damage is a boring thing in d20 games, especially since hit points are just this abstract ablative shield that is gradually whittled away with no correlation to physical injuries or imposition. And as you've pointed out, the tight math seems to be designed to ensure that it's impossible to make an 'overpowered' build.

But all the other stuff you can do with your actions: unbalancing someone, grabbing them, feinting, dirty tricks, all that stuff? I love it. I hated how in 3.5/PF you had to give up your turn to try any of those maneuvers, and unless you built your entire character specifically around throwing dirt into people's eyes, it was almost always better to just stab a b*tch than to do anything clever.

That said, the resolution of those cool maneuvers is obnoxious and fiddly. Imposing a multiattack penalty on any sort of combat trick once again makes it kinda disheartening to use them. Having all sorts of skill feats and gating the interesting stuff behind them - and then, like, making all the feats feel real nickel-and-dime weak in a sense of, "Hooray, now I am marginally less crappy at this thing that I rarely need to do," rather than the 5E style "hey, you've got a cool new power that you're great at" - produces gameplay that I personally find un-fun.

The core idea of PF2's action economy enthralled me. The execution makes me want to take a nap. It might be great for a video game -- just like D&D 4th edition would have been -- but it's not optimized for a story-driven free-form tabletop RPG.
 

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First Age

Explorer
Off-Topic: I would love for Green Ronin to do an updated version of True20, as I'm no longer a fan of its use of outdated 3e mechanics, but I suspect that their AGE System or Kevin Crawford's Worlds Without Number is as close as we're gonna get.

For a laugh I could throw up a 'Who's with me on True20' thread and see what happens. :)

I contacted Green Ronin asking if they might consider POD for their current titles and they replied to say that they were thinking about it.

I think you're right that we aren't going to get any further system development for this elegant take on the 3.0 SRD, but then I think it works pretty well. Without derailing any further the 22 pages of hand wrinigng on this thread, I'll go over to the D&D category and post something soon. I had a thread on it on rpg.net recently.
 

Since I'm not being asked by Paizo to revise PF2 and my group has given up on the system for the time being, the effort to simplify Pathfinder 2e into something I'd run just isn't worth it. If I want a simpler version of the game, I'll play 5e or an OSR system. Pathfinder doesn't bring anything to the experience other than more crunch and customization options - and trying to take those away defeats its sole purpose, IMO.

If I do want something crunchier in the future, the way I'll go is likely to add some options to 5e rather than try to reduce Pathfinder.
How about FantasyCraft? It offers a lot more customization than 5E, without the complex array of sub-systems PF2 is built on.
 

Retreater

Legend
How about FantasyCraft? It offers a lot more customization than 5E, without the complex array of sub-systems PF2 is built on.
I don't know much about it. The "build your own" systems have turned me off in the past, with rulesets like GURPS where the entirety of the game has to be specified by the GM at the outset of the campaign. I like options, but not as many as that.
 

Aldarc

Legend
It was years since I looked at either, but in my recollection AGE is very different and not similar at all to d20 (or true20)?
AGE may be 3d6 and not d20, but it operates along similar principles as True20.

For example, AGE basically opts for smaller Attribute Modifiers rather than D&D derived stats: e.g., roll 3d6 to determine your Strength of 17, which gives you your Strength Modifier of +3 that you add to attack rolls. True20 and AGE just says your Strength is +3 and calls it a day. It also does not uses D&D or True20's Attributes, but, this is where the influence of Warhammer Fantasy comes in with more distinctions: e.g., Strength and Fighting being separate attributes, Accuracy and Dexterity being separate attributes, and Willpower and Perception being separate attributes.

It also has a basic three class system: Warrior, Rogue, and Mage. Feats, Talents, and Prestige Class features are basically rolled all together. Blue Rose AGE follows Blue Rose T20 / True20 more directly in this regard: Adept, Expert, and Warrior. And Blue Rose's more flexible powers are also adapted to the AGE system.

There are key differences to be sure, but this is mainly due to the bell curve math of 3d6, such as removing the Skill System or BAB, for flatter math. Also AGE opts for HP, which True20 didn't. This is something of a shame, since HP bloat is one of AGE system's known weaknesses.

I think you're right that we aren't going to get any further system development for this elegant take on the 3.0 SRD, but then I think it works pretty well. Without derailing any further the 22 pages of hand wrinigng on this thread, I'll go over to the D&D category and post something soon. I had a thread on it on rpg.net recently.
Admittedly, I don't want another 3e-derived True20 as I think that game design has streamlined and advanced since then. So True20, IMHO, does not have the same elegance now that it did then.
 

kenada

Legend
Supporter
Again, thank you for trying to see the glass as half full.

They can't just say such a thing. Where's the rule that allows it?


Sorry but at least in official Adventure Paths, each and every DC is "appropriate" to your level, meaning that even a small bonus totally wrecks your chances.

If you assign climb DCs on objective analysis "this cliffside is hard but not impossible" you might assign it DC 20. Adding +5 or even +10 (to climb it a special way, such as with a weapon drawn) is then fair when a mid-level hero makes the attempt.

But official APs seldom (read practically never) work that way. If the cliffside is encountered at level 5, the DC might be 20, yes. But if at level 10, it will be DC 27 (or thereabouts). If at level 15, it will be DC 34.

The point here is that any bonus or penalty can't be much more than +1 or -1 or the activity is rendered practically impossible. Meaning that saying "even without the Combat Climber feat, you can climb and fight if you make a Climb check at disadvantage" will in practice mean "you need the Combat Climber feat", since noone in their right mind will keep doing something they might only have a 25% shot at.


Gosh, no. There's nothing wrong with this at all.

But unless we're houseruling there must be a rule to allow it. How to respond to players who feel stupid for taking feats that others don't need? And so on and so on.

I would love to be allowed to do these things, but where's the guidance?


I have never seen a game that leaves less to GM discretion. Yes, I know Paizo said they had GM discretion as a game design goal. But I can't see even the faintest trace of it anywhere. This game nails everything down, to the littlest insignificantest thing. Just look at some of the feats - they make the smallest tweaks to the most obscure actions. Nothing is left unregulated and thus up to GM discretion.


The lesson 5E drew is that by trying to be "clear" you let yourself be drawn into a never-ending fight to provide more and more detailed clarity.

The lesson PF2 failed to draw was that 5E in a big part was successful because it rejected this approach and trusted the GM.


Not create thousands of feats?

No really. Being able to crawl or swim or climb slightly faster are things that should come - no, needs - to come automatically with a higher skill bonus. The implication of all these feats existing is that any hero that doesn't take them can't do them.

Worse, it means that monsters are strangely stunted in the most wonky of ways. (Monsters and NPCs don't take feats. Yes there is a rule saying "you can stat up monsters using PC chargen rules if you want". No, Paizo don't use it. Approximately 0% of official monsters and NPCs take levels, classes, feats and such) Example: I recently had a monster suggest athletical challenges to see who's the strongest or fastest.

My player, happy with his recent feat pick, Cloud Jump suggested "long jumping". That idea quickly crashed and burned once we realized the monster could never jump longer than its Speed (30 ft) despite a very respectable Athletics skill bonus of +35. The DC is the number of feet you want to jump, so 20 feet would be DC 20 and so on.

You can't jump longer than your speed, full stop. The only way to break this rule is to have the feat Cloud Jump. Read the errata! It's abundantly clear that without the feat the rule says you can't jump longer than your speed, full stop.

So even if the monster wanted to aim for 40 feet (rolling a 5 on its d20) it can't aim for more than 30 feet, since that's its speed. With the Cloud Jump feat this limitation is voided, and your DC is slashed by two thirds. So the hero could go for 60 feet easily.

Making basic movement hinge on specific and non-interchangeable feats like this is exactly why I confidently say the PF2 model is irrevocably and utterly busted.

It should be trivial to realize that the solution "but give the monster the feat" is nonsensical. Nobody wants a situation where every monster must take literally hundreds of feats into consideration. This feat should never have existed. The rule limiting jumps to your Speed should never have existed. It is just one out of a thousand rules that mostly exist to justify a feat.

The game would have been simply better if all of this was just stricken from the game. Which is exactly my point. Rip out a dozen pages out of the rulebook and the game just works better. Rip out another dozen pages, and the game becomes better still.

Something is clearly wrong with the approach with which Pathfinder 2 has been constructed.



Customization is good, but this is not the only way to go about it. In fact, of all possible ways to go about it, this is likely among the very worst.


I disagree. "Shifting gears" is just about the best praise 5E could be summarized as. 5E managed to reinvent the game, shed a truckload of old rules deitrus, and move on to huge huge success.

Despite Paizo having access to 5E for five years, they were unable to replicate any of it. In fact 2E doubles down on exactly the polar opposite of what 5E so very clearly have proved beyond a doubt what gamers want.



The skill actions themselves are slightly fiddly, yes, but they're not even close to where the real problem lies.

Sure I don't need a separate Balance action from a Tumble Through action from a Squeeze action, but that's a minor annoyance compared to what I'm talking about: that you might be Legendary in Acrobatics but you would still squeeze 5 feet per minute :cautious::rolleyes::cautious: unless you have taken exactly one specific feat out of the several thousand that's on offer.


I would say that for each PF1 modifier or exception they cleaned up, they added two new modifiers or exceptions. There is nothing simple or easy about PF2. It's insanely cludgy and fiddly and hard to remember and hard to calculate and you roll endless d20s and other dice...


But Paizo can't do this? How will they keep selling books if they can't shovel new feats out by the hundreds...? /s
I started to go point by point, but I decided to mull over my response some before making it. Let me summarize to see if I (finally?) understand your position.

What you’re saying is that PF2 should have aimed for a level of complexity similar to retroclones or OSR-inspired games. D&D 5e is an example of such a game, but the point isn’t necessarily to make PF2 like 5e. In essence, there should be parts of the system that are roped off from the rules.

For example, anything involving skill checks should be off limits. That’s the GM’s playground. If the rules intrude on it, then it constrains what the GM can do regardless of whether we feel empowered or not to make a ruling allowing something.

That’s not to say you can’t simplify the core while also having customization. Customization is fine and good, but it should be more substantive than ‘you get a +1 Circumstance bonus to Diplomacy when you wear a blue hat’.

Essentially (and this is my editorializing), the things that PF2 got right were the action economy and math that works. However, the benefits of the math are limited because the GM can’t just decide to have someone make roll an AC check against a Performance DC because a feat might intrude on that some day.

So PF2 can still be its own game, but it will be more in line with what people expect from a peer to 5e.

I hope that’s a reasonably accurate summary. Let me know if not. I’m curious whether that would fly with PF’s core audience. I suspect there may be more than a few fans of 3e-style “player empowerment”. However, I want that game. I fear I may end up homebrewing my way towards it. 😬
 

kenada

Legend
Supporter
Since I'm not being asked by Paizo to revise PF2 and my group has given up on the system for the time being, the effort to simplify Pathfinder 2e into something I'd run just isn't worth it. If I want a simpler version of the game, I'll play 5e or an OSR system. Pathfinder doesn't bring anything to the experience other than more crunch and customization options - and trying to take those away defeats its sole purpose, IMO.

If I do want something crunchier in the future, the way I'll go is likely to add some options to 5e rather than try to reduce Pathfinder.
My players love character building. I’d love to switch to OSE, and I could force the switch if I decided unilaterally to stop running PF2, but there’s no enthusiasm (and some derision) for it from my players.

I’m going to look at the effect of axing skill actions (and boring skill feats that depend on them), but it may be they’re too deeply ingrained in the system. 😑
 

Nilbog

Snotling Herder
Anyone got anything positive to say about this system? I was running a homebrew campaign in pf2e and quite enjoying it until lockdown hit, I've been spending what free time I have getting it up and running in foundry vtt, but reading this thread I'm wondering if it's worth the effort and I should try something else.
 

Anyone got anything positive to say about this system? I was running a homebrew campaign in pf2e and quite enjoying it until lockdown hit, I've been spending what free time I have getting it up and running in foundry vtt, but reading this thread I'm wondering if it's worth the effort and I should try something else.
If you are enjoying the system, don’t let anyone on the Internet get you down.

When I read the system, I can really see why the right group would enjoy it. However, if your groups tends to be tactics light, or very narratively focussed, or includes at least one player who will ask you what his attack bonus is every round, then PF2 may not be the system for your group.

I think the best way to experience the system is either to join a group that is already playing PF2, or be in a group where everyone is enthusiastic about switching to the system.
 

kenada

Legend
Supporter
Anyone got anything positive to say about this system? I was running a homebrew campaign in pf2e and quite enjoying it until lockdown hit, I've been spending what free time I have getting it up and running in foundry vtt, but reading this thread I'm wondering if it's worth the effort and I should try something else.
We had our first session in Foundry last Saturday. I really like the modules that are available for Foundry. The PF2 support is pretty solid (better than roll20’s), though I wish there were better support for ad hoc modifiers. We were using roll20 plus Hero Lab Online before. During our post mortem, I asked the group if people wanted to continue using that, and no one was willing to do that. 😂

There are things I like about PF2 and things I don’t. Exploration mode works reasonably well with the kind of game I like to run. I feel really sour on skill actions right now, which extends to skill feats somewhat. I like the encounter-building tools even though I need to tweak the scale for my group, and I like the way that monster and hazard creation works.

I don’t run APs though, and I especially don’t run APs without modifying them. Based on accounts here, the latter approach in particular seems to be the path to misery in PF2.
 
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