D&D General Reification versus ludification in 5E/6E

A hobgoblin warrior wouldn’t do 3d6 or 4d6 damage. It does 2d10 damage. “Longsword” doesn’t refer to a real thing that exists, it’s just the name of one of the attacks the stat block named Hobgoblin Warrior has, and 2d10 is how much damage that attack does. In thinking about “how much damage would a hobgoblin warrior do with a greatsword?” you are thinking about hobgoblins and greatswords as independent reified objects, which is not how the rules actually work. A hobgoblin with a greatsword would be represented by a different stat block, and how much damage it deals would be dependent on what degree of offensive challenge you wanted it to pose. You may not like thinking about the rules in such a nakedly mechanical way, and I don’t blame you. But it is how the rules actually work. The 2024 monster manual is just revealing those naked mechanics to you, buy making the “clothing” transparent.
And that's a problem. If a hobgoblin can pick up a dagger and do the exact same damage as with a longsword or greatsword, something is wrong. They are independent objects, whether the game wants to treat them as such or not. If the goblin drops the dagger, a PC doesn't pick up both the goblin and the dagger if he picks up the dagger.
 

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2014 5e didn't show the work. It has invisible, unnamed traits that decide the creature's stats. But we don't complain about their omission in the new version because we never missed them. It's kind of like how we just take the ultra gamey AC and HP mechanics for granted because they've been in the game since the very beginning.
But that’s not entirely true - the hobgoblin damage, as an example. It’s a long sword damage plus his strength and the stats align that way. And I think more to the point, when 5e did do it, I’d prefer the explanation rather than just decide across the board that it doesn’t matter. 🤷‍♂️
 

And that's a problem. If a hobgoblin can pick up a dagger and do the exact same damage as with a longsword or greatsword, something is wrong. They are independent objects, whether the game wants to treat them as such or not. If the goblin drops the dagger, a PC doesn't pick up both the goblin and the dagger if he picks up the dagger.

I disagree, or more accurately--It's a problem I'm willing to suffer for a more usable Stat line and game design principle I have actual respect for
 

And that's a problem. If a hobgoblin can pick up a dagger and do the exact same damage as with a longsword or greatsword, something is wrong. They are independent objects, whether the game wants to treat them as such or not. If the goblin drops the dagger, a PC doesn't pick up both the goblin and the dagger if he picks up the dagger.
It's not really how it works though. For example, if a battle master fighter disarms a hobgoblin, obviously the intent isn't that the hobgoblin can now use their unarmed attacks or shield or whatever to deal the exact same damage. The fighter's Disarming Attack is supposed to make the enemy less effective at fighting. The Hobgoblin Warrior (or any other similar creature) could of course pick up another weapon and deal a different amount of damage -- but, if you change that particular stat block and give it less damage, that could alter its CR, which in turn could change how DMs could use the stat block in their games. If during a fight the creature switches to a weapon not featured in its stat block and you change its damage, that's not really an issue because the game is chock full of effects and rules that alter damage and attacks within a particular encounter.

But that’s not entirely true - the hobgoblin damage, as an example. It’s a long sword damage plus his strength and the stats align that way. And I think more to the point, when 5e did do it, I’d prefer the explanation rather than just decide across the board that it doesn’t matter. 🤷‍♂️
Ok, so you also think that the 2014 stat blocks show that the designers decided that it doesn't matter why the creatures have this one proficiency but not the other? Why does the 2014 Mage have 9 HD and seems to mostly correspond to a 9th-level wizard -- except it has a d8 HD, doesn't have a spellbook trait and thus can't cast rituals from the spellbook, doesn't possess the Arcane Recovery trait, and doesn't have any subclass features. Does it have a Mage class? Where is that detailed? Are there other "Mages" in the world? Of a lower level?
 

It's not really how it works though. For example, if a battle master fighter disarms a hobgoblin, obviously the intent isn't that the hobgoblin can now use their unarmed attacks or shield or whatever to deal the exact same damage. The fighter's Disarming Attack is supposed to make the enemy less effective at fighting. The Hobgoblin Warrior (or any other similar creature) could of course pick up another weapon and deal a different amount of damage -- but, if you change that particular stat block and give it less damage, that could alter its CR, which in turn could change how DMs could use the stat block in their games. If during a fight the creature switches to a weapon not featured in its stat block and you change its damage, that's not really an issue because the game is chock full of effects and rules that alter damage and attacks within a particular encounter.
Then give it the Super Smash Bro ability that adds 1d10 damage to the weapon used, or give it Smush the Enemy, which allows it to double it's damage 3 times a day. Or whatever ability you want to bring it up to the CR you need it to be.

Just allowing it to do X damage with any weapon you arm it with just because it's a hobgoblin does both the hobgoblin and the weapons a disservice. Both should have meaning independently.
Ok, so you also think that the 2014 stat blocks show that the designers decided that it doesn't matter why the creatures have this one proficiency but not the other? Why does the 2014 Mage have 9 HD and seems to mostly correspond to a 9th-level wizard -- except it has a d8 HD, doesn't have a spellbook trait and thus can't cast rituals from the spellbook, doesn't possess the Arcane Recovery trait, and doesn't have any subclass features. Does it have a Mage class? Where is that detailed? Are there other "Mages" in the world? Of a lower level?
It's a mage, not a wizard. ;)

Seriously, though, there are hundreds, perhaps thousands of different "classes" and "subclasses" out in the wide, wide D&D world. The WotC is allergic to give us players more options doesn't change that, so if the mage is a bit different than a wizard as a class, that's not unusual. A mage picking up a dagger or a greatsword and hitting for the same damage would be.
 

Ok, so you also think that the 2014 stat blocks show that the designers decided that it doesn't matter why the creatures have this one proficiency but not the other? Why does the 2014 Mage have 9 HD and seems to mostly correspond to a 9th-level wizard -- except it has a d8 HD, doesn't have a spellbook trait and thus can't cast rituals from the spellbook, doesn't possess the Arcane Recovery trait, and doesn't have any subclass features. Does it have a Mage class? Where is that detailed? Are there other "Mages" in the world? Of a lower level?
Probably because proficiency isn’t as important as attack and damage bonuses? Do I need an NPC mage to cast ritual magic? If it ever came up in game, it’s probably not in the context of combat, and then the NPC can simply have the spell. I’m not looking back to the 2e/3e days where the NPC wizard’s entire spell book needs to be detailed to me. There is a happy medium, IMO.

The Hit dice thing is an issue for me, but I’m also not defending 2014 as perfect. I’m saying I don’t want to slide further in the direction of things not making sense within the system OR having some explanation narratively.
 

And that's a problem. If a hobgoblin can pick up a dagger and do the exact same damage as with a longsword or greatsword, something is wrong. They are independent objects, whether the game wants to treat them as such or not. If the goblin drops the dagger, a PC doesn't pick up both the goblin and the dagger if he picks up the dagger.
Why is that a problem? The player has no idea how much damage a monster can do and no idea how that damage is calculated.

The only person with a problem is the sausage maker - the DM.

How did the monster do X damage is not a question that any dm should have to answer.
 

I’m saying I don’t want to slide further in the direction of things not making sense within the system OR having some explanation narratively.
I do. Though I'd argue it's more 'making sense within the world' and not the system itself. Giving the tarrasque 'If An attack hits against a medium creature or smaller' makes sense within the world, but it's naughty word within the system
 

Then give it the Super Smash Bro ability that adds 1d10 damage to the weapon used, or give it Smush the Enemy, which allows it to double it's damage 3 times a day. Or whatever ability you want to bring it up to the CR you need it to be.

Just allowing it to do X damage with any weapon you arm it with just because it's a hobgoblin does both the hobgoblin and the weapons a disservice. Both should have meaning independently.

It's a mage, not a wizard. ;)

Seriously, though, there are hundreds, perhaps thousands of different "classes" and "subclasses" out in the wide, wide D&D world. The WotC is allergic to give us players more options doesn't change that, so if the mage is a bit different than a wizard as a class, that's not unusual. A mage picking up a dagger or a greatsword and hitting for the same damage would be.
And it’s a Hobgoblin, not a fighter or barbarian.

Same explanation applies.
 

Though I'd argue it's more 'making sense within the world' and not the system itself.
Girl Why Dont We Have Both GIF
 

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