D&D General Reification versus ludification in 5E/6E

[Micah Sweet]

That's what I mean about audits. What does it do to have a trait that says:
"Wind Weilder: any weapon an aarakroca skirmisher weilds gains the ability of a returning weapon and does an extra 1d4 thunder damage on a hit."

Did we answer how the aarakroca is doing that? No? How about:

"Wind Weilder: do to the blessing of the Wind Dukes of Aqua, any weapon an aarakroca skirmisher weilds gains the ability of a returning weapon and does an extra 1d4 thunder damage on a hit."

Oh, is that too lore-specific? And we continue this dance. There is no solution that will satisfy.

Or we can answer how the aarakocra is doing that, and have lore-specific abilities.

 

[Micah Sweet]

From the other thread, concerning hobgoblins, here is my re-write for the Hobgoblin Warrior.
View attachment 396910

Their Exceptional Arms and Armor trait grants them bonuses. If their armor or weapons are taken after their defeat, the bonues last for 24 hours or until a long rest or whatever. The idea is the hobgoblins have knowledge on how to tend their armor/weapons that give them this bonus, but it is the constant care which allows them to have it as part of their statblock.

Are these exceptional crafting and maintenance skills something the PCs can theoretically learn? Why do only hobgoblins have them?

 

[mamba]

That's what I mean about audits. What does it do to have a trait that says:
"Wind Weilder: any weapon an aarakroca skirmisher weilds gains the ability of a returning weapon and does an extra 1d4 thunder damage on a hit."

it makes the whole thing more believable / the world more consistent than a ‘the Aaracokra has a special javelin that does return and deals special damage, but it disappears when the A. dies so players can never use it’.

At that point you are better off making it lightning bolts…

 

[Micah Sweet]

Are you willing to accept that at the cost of long sloggy fights where monsters make dozens of attacks and do middling damage to PCs?

I don't think that's a necessary cost, but yes.

 

[Remathilis]

Because those are all gamist solutions. Perhaps the best way is simply to cut down on how high levels get for everyone. Or give monsters magic weapons that actually exist in the world outside of them and let the PCs loot them if they want. Or treat high CR humanoids as highly trained specialists like the PCs. There are plenty of ways to do this that make better setting logic.

1. How high? Level 10? 6? Where do you cut off game play to serve versimillitude

2. Every player in the world then is going to farm aarakroca to get free returning javelins that do +1d4 damage. They are only CR 1/2 creatures, after all. Then I will hunt down the hobgoblin's fey sword for that sweet 2d10 damage.

3. They are treated like specialists. The stat block is just not announcing that "this monster is using a specialized skill that PCs can't use".

Versimillitude is all well and good until you're building monsters with 8 HD, 5 levels of fighter (complete with skill points and feats every 3 HD) and magical gear fit for a 5th level NPC (+1 weapon, +1 armor, +1 cloak, etc) to make them a challenge.

 

[Remathilis]

it makes the while thing more believable than a ‘the Aaracokraw has a a special javelin that does return and deals special damage, but it disappears when the A. dies so players can never use it’.

At that point you are better off making it lightning bolts…

I mean, it's still a javelin. PCs can use them, but they aren't getting 1d4 extra damage and returning it to hand.

But I think the pendulum is going to end up swinging back to 3e style "monsters are built like PCs" at the rate this is going.

 

[TwoSix]

Are you willing to accept that at the cost of long sloggy fights where monsters make dozens of attacks and do middling damage to PCs?

I'm willing to accept that the math for CR might fail for humanoid NPCs because a portion of their abilities is built around sustainability, rather than pure offense and defense capability.

It's not a "PC vs NPC" issue for me. It's a "people versus monsters" issue. Or a "tool-using, weapon and armor bearing humanoid versus everything else" issue.

 

[ezo]

Are these exceptional crafting and maintenance skills something the PCs can theoretically learn? Why do only hobgoblins have them?

This would depend on the game design and DM:

• Other editions and have games for "master craft" items and such, so it could be a limited way of introducing them.
• Or it could be something PCs can learn from hobgoblings but it might take months or even years, something hobgoblins are taught from a very early age and take years to perfect.
• Or it could be some varnish created by hobgoblin spittle.
• Or it could be something else...

Take your pick--whatever works best for your game. As for the game's design, whatever works best for the designers I suppose.

 

[Maxperson]

I'm going to need you to sit down for this one.

https://www.dndbeyond.com/monsters/4831023-mage

Mage. 2024. Please justify all abilities in the stat block. I'll wait.

Cool. Cool. I was clearly talking about the 5e(2014 versions of things). Context is your friend. You did see the 2014 mentioned in my post, right?

The 5.5e problems are problems, yes. I have no desire to come up with weak justifications for the 5.5e issues as I mentioned in an earlier post.

 

[Pedantic]

I'm willing to accept that the math for CR might fail for humanoid NPCs because a portion of their abilities is built around sustainability, rather than pure offense and defense capability.

It's not a "PC vs NPC" issue for me. It's a "people versus monsters" issue. Or a "tool-using, weapon and armor bearing humanoid versus everything else" issue.

I really would prefer CR be an evaluative tool that provides a reasonable "what will happen if these two entities fight?" analysis. We should have a model that takes better inputs, hopefully more tailored to actual PC builds (and maybe when PC state entering the encounter). The initial mistake to me looks like directly tuning your monster creation processes to produce CR banded outputs.