Reincarnate and its interpretation

[Elethiomel]

This is a thread intended to take discussion from http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=205966 about the wording of the Reincarnate spell, because that was starting to hijack said thread.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

The discussion revolves around this text from reincarnate:

"Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores depend partly on the new body. First eliminate the subject’s racial adjustments (since it is no longer of his previous race) and then apply the adjustments found below to its remaining ability scores."

I (and others) argue that since (a) there's no mention of not stripping mental racial adjustments away (when so many other spells are explicit about when mental stats aren't affected) and (b) the spell makes perfect sense and works perfectly well if mental adjustment are stripped away, the literal RAW is that all racial adjustments to ability scores are stripped, then Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution adjustments from the accompanying table are made.

I (and others) further argue that interpreting the spell the other way (that the reference to stripping away racial adjustments applies only to Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution adjustments, even though that's not explict) is perfectly understandable, and might well be what is intended, despite not being what is written.

Hypersmurf (and others) argue that it's unambiguously clear that the instructions to remove ability score adjustments apply solely to Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution.

 

[kreynolds]

Hypersmurf (and others) argue that it's unambiguously clear that the instructions to remove ability score adjustments apply solely to Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution.

I would not go so far as to argue that it is completely unambiguous, but for me personally, "Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores depend partly on the new body..." extends to "while Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma do not depend on the new body", so I do agree none the less.

I do not see where the spell description makes mention of changing mental ability scores, nor do I see where it is implied, but that may just be due to how I think.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

I do not see where the spell description makes mention of changing mental ability scores, nor do I see where it is implied, but that may just be due to how I think.

If someone says to you, "Okay, before you do Action, remove the racial adjustments to ability scores," that doesn't imply that you might be changing a mental ability score?

 

[kreynolds]

If someone says to you, "Okay, before you do Action, remove the racial adjustments to ability scores," that doesn't imply that you might be changing a mental ability score?

As a blanket statement, yes, but that's not what the spell description states, so I do not see the parallel you are trying to make.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

As a blanket statement, yes, but that's not what the spell description states, so I do not see the parallel you are trying to make.

Let me make sure I understand you.

You don't think that the statement "before you do Action, remove the racial adjustments to ability scores" is a fair paraphrase of "[f]irst eliminate the subject’s racial adjustments (since it is no longer of his previous race) and then [do Action]"?

If not, I can see why reincarnate would have you confused.

 

[Hypersmurf]

If someone says to you, "Okay, before you do Action, remove the racial adjustments to ability scores," that doesn't imply that you might be changing a mental ability score?

If someone says to you, "Okay, before you do Action, your Str, Dex, and Con might be affected - remove the racial adjustments to ability scores," that doesn't imply that you might not be changing a mental ability score?

Do you feel that's a fair paraphrase of "Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores depend partly on the new body. First eliminate the subject’s racial adjustments (since it is no longer of his previous race) and then [Action]"?

-Hyp.

 

[Doug Sundseth]

The term that's been missing from this discussion is "conversational implicature". To go back to a previous example with a slight modification:

"I saw a bus yesterday. The bus is yellow."

In the absence of implicature, you cannot know what color bus I saw yesterday. "The bus" need not refer to the same bus as "a bus" in the previous sentence. Perhaps I'm referring to a bus that is passing outside my window right now.

In fact, some people's brains work that way, but it's a hallmark of autism spectrum disorders and comedians, not normal discourse.

For more information on conversational implicature, see (for example):

http://www.sil.org/LINGUISTICS/GlossaryOfLinguisticTerms/WhatIsConversationalImplicatur.htm

 

[Jhaelen]

I (and others) further argue that interpreting the spell the other way (that the reference to stripping away racial adjustments applies only to Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution adjustments, even though that's not explict) is perfectly understandable, and might well be what is intended, despite not being what is written.

Hypersmurf (and others) argue that it's unambiguously clear that the instructions to remove ability score adjustments apply solely to Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution.

Hypersmurf is quite right (as (almost) always).

Arguing strictly by RAW without thinking about the rule's intent leads to a very specific kind of insanity. It is not possible to play the game in any meaningful way if you restrict yourself to RAW. It is an interesting theoretical exercise but it's just that: theoretical.

FWIW, the 3.0 description of this spell contained this sentence:

He retains his Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores, as well as any class abilities or skills he formerly possessed.

Looks they should have kept the old description...

 

[kreynolds]

You don't think that the statement "before you do Action, remove the racial adjustments to ability scores" is a fair paraphrase of "[f]irst eliminate the subject’s racial adjustments (since it is no longer of his previous race) and then [do Action]"?

"Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores depend partly on the new body. Before you do Action, remove the racial adjustments to ability scores."

Now it's a fair paraphrase.

If not, I can see why reincarnate would have you confused.

Be nice, or I won't play.