Reincarnate help?

[stevelabny]

Not having dealt with this before, heres my question.

Raise Dead says that the subject loses one level as if they had lost a level to an energy draining creature. This means you lose the HD, BAB, save progression, feats, skills, attribue gain, class abilities etc.

Reincarnate says that the subject retains all their mental ability scores, class abilties, feats, skill ranks, AND HIT POINTS. It says to remove any racial modifiers to the physical ability scores, then apply the new racial modifiers to the physical ability scores. The next line in the spell description states that the subject's level (or HD) is reduced by 1.

So, I'm befuddled. Does the subject lose a level and everything that goes with it or do they just lose a HD for determing effects based on HD? It seems odd to specifically state you keep all your abilities, feats, skill ranks and hit points, but then say you lose a level.

Also, reincarnate gives the subject the new racial mods to physical abilties and any new or altered movement speeds, natural armor, natural attacks, extraordinary abilities, etc. Does this also include all the racial bonuses to skills? I would assume so, but again, it seems strange that these weren't listed specifically.

 

[Gizzard]

It seems odd to specifically state you keep all your abilities, feats, skill ranks and hit points, but then say you lose a level.

It would also seem odd to talk about levels at all when you can be Reincarnated as a +LA creature like a bear or -LA creature like a badger. ;-) I'd suggest avoiding the spell entirely.

To answer your first question, I always assumed that the "lose a level" came first, then came the "keep all your old stats". So you lost a level and recalculated your character. Then you recieve a new body. You recalculate the character one more time based on the physical attributes of the new body; ie, adding +damage for additional strength etc.

Seriously, this spell requires so much adjudication that I doubt there is a "right" answer to these questions.

 

[stevelabny]

for the record, im going by the 3.5 book, where you can no longer come back as a bear, badger or other animal.

although u can come back as a bugbear or troglodyte or gnoll. which are LA+ creatures.

 

[Ferret]

Probably it want you to loose a level but not gain the HD or skills etc of the animal.

 

[Conaill]

I have to agree that the language used is somewhat confusing, but for consistency I would run it the same as level loss due to Raise Dead.

As for the Level Adjustment issue... come take a look at the Awakened Animal thread, where we've been trying to come up with LA estimates for various animals. They should work fine for 3.0 reincarnated PCs too.

So far we've somewhat shied away from assigning negative LA's for the weaker animal types (awakened toad, anyone?) because that seems to be a fairly sensitive issue. I would love to hear some more opinions on that issue though...

 

[Gizzard]

for the record, im going by the 3.5 book, where you can no longer come back as a bear, badger or other animal.

Tangent: I banned this spell back in 3E for a couple reasons; as I look at the 3.5E version it seems better, but not exactly fixed. Here are some things that lead to the banning; feel free to ignore this tiny rant if you aren't asking as DM. ;-)

/tiny rant

1) In 3E, sometimes you could come back as a bear, sometimes as a dryad. If you were a low level fighter and came back as a bear, you were like 3 times as powerful as the rest of the party. If you came back as a dryad, you were +LA but couldn't move far from your tree. How is the DM supposed to deal with this? Now, in 3.5 you can come back as a Bugbear (win!) or as a Kobold (lose). The balance issues are smaller but not eliminated.

2) Raise Dead should be a better spell. It's 5th level, it costs 5000g. Reincarnate is 4th and costs 1000g. How do you balance these spells so that PCs want to use Raise Dead instead of rolling the dice and hoping to become +LA with Reincarnate? (And then being sad if they get screwed by being a Kobold?) This is mostly an issue with low level parties where the difference between 5000g and 1000g is really significant. But, then of course, low level is where the +LA creatures would have the most impact.

/end rant

Anyway, this all ties back into your question about which order to apply the effects of level loss etc -- I think in order to balance the spell with Raise Dead you have to interpret the langauge in a harsh way.

 

[stevelabny]

if the internet didnt exist, i just wouldve interpreted the spell to be:
lose a level as raise dead, everything else stays the same. lose the previous racial mods to physical attributes and skills and any special ablities , gain the new racial mods to same and any special abiltiies. you dont get any racial HD, and I would probably ignore the +1 LA in the few instances it happens since the PC is now a level behind the party anyway. I just figured I'd ask since I have the access to the great resource that is ENWorld.

yes you can "win" and get a bugbear or a gnoll or a lizardfolk or a troglodyte, and yes you can "lose" with a kobold. but chances are you'll get something in the middle. yes the changes are more valuable to a fighter-type than to a rogue-type or a spellcaster, but i think this is where the DM has to do his job to step in.

the MORE the PC benefits from his new shape, the stronger the consequences should be. Start that bugbear invasion of the surrounding area (or the whole continent) as soon as the PC gets the new race. Sure he's bigger and stronger, but now EVERYONE hates him. Turn former NPC allies against the party. Basically, give constant reminders that you didnt just get major bonuses to stats, YOURE A FREAKIN BUGBEAR. Won't be too long before the PC is trying to change back.

Conversely, if the PC "loses" with the kobold, throw him a bone. Have the kobolds become new allies, or a new fad, or at the very least have him constantly underestimated in battles. Have the next magic item the party finds be a kobold-only artifact (ok, not an artifact, but you get the idea). And if the PC still hates it, he can go off to try to fix it too.

I've always been a big fan in trying to keep the game challenging, but letting things happen. I havent pushed the 3.x rules to their limits as a player and since I'm DMing now, I'm really trying to see as much as I can in action. And test myself with on-the-fly adjustments. So I'll probably just let the dead PC roll and see what he gets.