Reincarnate = Immortality?

[Hypersmurf]

Maybe Hypersmurf will weigh in.

My take on it in the past has been the same as yours - the monk and druid illustrate that it is not the body's age, but the creature's age, that determines time of death.

Of course, then there's the question of "What about an elf who turns into a human?", or vice versa... the implication is that the elf-turned-human would live for several hundred years as a human before dying of old age, and I'm not sure when he would be considered to change age categories...

-Hyp.

 

[Sejs]

Frankly, reincarnation introduces a whole host of issues, of which aging is one.

My personal take is more to the Resets Your Lifespan end of the spectrum, for a couple of reasons. The spell expressly states you get a new young adult body, it doesn't say you die when your time is up as is the case with Timeless Body, it costs you a level every time you do it, you cannot go quietly of old age (or you don't qualify, as per the spell), and you either have to have someone you trust do it for you or invest in the Delay Spell feat and cast it as a 7th level spell.

Then there're be the issue of how to handle the change in natural time-table, as Hyp mentioned above, etc. And compare it to beings that already have a fantastically long natural lifespan such as elves, plane-touched, kiloren, and elan and really.. doesn't seem that big a mechanical deal.


...besides, when was the last time an adventurer ever died of old age?

 

[Moon-Lancer]

Well it’s not so much that, but if you retire your character and play a new game in the same setting, like a progressive generation, if your an elf or something with a long lifespan, they may come back as epic characters or awesome npc's. This is actually happening in a campaign I am playing in.

I was playing an elf druid. we saved the day... yada yada yada. All the other characters were human. Well in the next game we are playing, it is taking place a few (human) generations in the future. Well all the human characters are almost dead becuse of age, while my elf could come back as a npc that could make a diffrence in the world still, and help out the new party, or could become playable in a epic game.

About reincarnation though, why did it go to the trouble of pointing out that you get a new young body if it doesn’t reset your age? Shouldn’t they have just left that out?

 

[Tiberius]

Y'know, I seem to recall a passage of Masters of the Wild suggesting you could do this very thing. I should see if I can find that.

Edit:
Eh, it's inconclusive. Page 80 mentions that even the aged can be given a new lease on life, brought back in a young adult body. However, it doesn't address the maximum age issue.

 

[pawsplay]

It's certainly not the only path to effective immortality. The Cloud Anchorite has no effective lifespan. Elans and most outsiders could theoretically exist for thousands of years or more (probably not actually forever, as entropy will win even if aging itself can't touch them).

I find it a non-issue. No one is less likely to die of old age than a PC.

For that matter, elvish lifespans, often cited as a logical problem, are a non-issue. As you approach 200-300 years, you are eventually going to get eaten by a bear, fall out of a tree, or something.

 

[Falling Icicle]

My take on it in the past has been the same as yours - the monk and druid illustrate that it is not the body's age, but the creature's age, that determines time of death.

I don't see a relation here. Reincarnate does not prevent aging, it just turns back the clock. Once reincarnated in a new body, you immediately start aging as appropriate to your new race. Druids and Monks still age, they just don't suffer penalties for doing so. They grow older and die, but look young. Timeless body just prevents physical ability score penalties and wrinkles, but it doesn't make you young again. Reincarnate actually does make you young again.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Timeless body just prevents physical ability score penalties and wrinkles, but it doesn't make you young again. Reincarnate actually does make you young again.

Timeless Body doesn't need to make you young again if you're still young when you reach that level.

Reincarnate makes your body young again; Timeless Body can make it so your body never stops being young in the first place.

Via Timeless Body, you can die of old age when your body is still that of a young adult. Reincarnate doesn't make your spirit young again - you retain your memories, etc. If you'd gained increases to mental abilities through aging before being reincarnated, you would retain those increases in your new body.

So why should Reincarnate's 'old creature in a young body' behave differently to Timeless Body's 'old creature in a young body'?

-Hyp.

 

[No Name]

So why should Reincarnate's 'old creature in a young body' behave differently to Timeless Body's 'old creature in a young body'?

Monks and Druids never stop aging. Their age never gets reset. They just don't look old. They become the Dick Clarks of D&D.

Freshly reincarnated characters get new bodies. Physical age penalties go away. Mental age bonuses stay. You have the wisdom of the ages, and a brand new body to abuse them with.

It's either, "Wow grandpa, you look 20 even though you're 100 and have one foot in the grave," or "Wow grandpa, you don't just look 20, you really are 20.

 

[Jack Simth]

Timeless Body doesn't need to make you young again if you're still young when you reach that level.

Reincarnate makes your body young again; Timeless Body can make it so your body never stops being young in the first place.

Via Timeless Body, you can die of old age when your body is still that of a young adult. Reincarnate doesn't make your spirit young again - you retain your memories, etc. If you'd gained increases to mental abilities through aging before being reincarnated, you would retain those increases in your new body.

So why should Reincarnate's 'old creature in a young body' behave differently to Timeless Body's 'old creature in a young body'?

-Hyp.

I think the basic arguement is that Timeless Body and it's ilk clearly spell out what happens; You stop taking aging penalties (note, the monk/druid version, at least, does NOT say you remain physically young, just that you can't be magically aged and don't take aging penalties), but you still drop dead at your maximum age. Reincarenate does not refer to Timeless body or it's ilk - it just says it puts you in a young adult body. No mention of how much longer you have. No clear mention of what this means to aging bonuses. It's not clear in the RAW.

I suspect those who see Reincarenate as a viable method of immortality look at "young adult body" and think: Hey, I've gone from being a 355 year Venerable elf to a 50 year old Dwarf; cool! I've got another 200 years before I hit the Venerable category again! I can do this later, too, to be young yet again!" - it's a young adult body, and most the age-related troubles that kill people in real life are due to body breakdown. It makes perfect sense that switching to a young adult body every now and again makes for effective agelessness.

I suspect those who see Reincarnate as a non-viable method of immortatity look at "young adult body", look through the Reincarnate desciprtion, look at "similar cases" such as the Monk/Druid Timeless Body, note that they call out that you still die when you hit your max age, don't see anything in the Reincarnate description that says you now are treated as being age X, and say - sorry, you're still 350 years old. You'll be dead in seven more, with the rolls I made, even though you're now in the body of a 50 year old dwarf.

Of course, even with the first interpertation, it's still not true immortality. There's always that pesky "other" at the end for an annoyed DM. "Wait, what do you mean I was reincarnated as a Homonculus? I'm a Fighter!"

 

[Sejs]

If you'd gained increases to mental abilities through aging before being reincarnated, you would retain those increases in your new body.

Well, first off, those bonuses are a touch wonky, you must admit. Humans, half elves, etc, etc - live for 60 years, get some mental stat bonuses. Elves, dwarves, etc - live for the same amount of time, have the same experiences, gain squat. Long lifespan also apparently means you learn really slow as well. An elf needs to be pushing 200 before it'll pick up the 'wisdom of the aged' that a human will pick up by the time they're in their mid-30s.

So why should Reincarnate's 'old creature in a young body' behave differently to Timeless Body's 'old creature in a young body'?

Because Timeless Body has a note that expressly says you die when your time's up and Reincarnate does not.