Rejigging caster level

[Plane Sailing]

I house ruled somthing similar in my campaing that states that casterlevels of different classes sorcerer/wizard , wizard/cleric all stack.
Thus a 3 level wizard / 4 level cleric cast at 7th.

Bards, paladins and rangers use half classlevels for their casterlevel.
Thus a bard 4 / sorcerer 3 cast at 5th

But non caster levels don't add.

Perhaps being a bit tough on bards here? They are more of a caster than Paladins and Rangers, after all... give them 3/4 their class levels?


Another thought - what to do about prestige classes with their own spell lists, like Assassins. Caster level = prestige class level? Caster level = 1/2 character level??

Cheers

 

[Lily Inverse]

Technically, a fighter doesn't have a caster level, being a non-spellcasting class. But assuming you just mean highest class level, you get into knots trying to explain why magic ability should be tied to a mundane class.

You didn't ask me to be logical, you asked me to help with a rules problem!

My solution was mainly a balance point. Essentially what I was saying was "You can't have an effective caster level higher than twice your ACTUAL caster level through taking other classes." This helps avoid the worst crippling of multi-class characters without the utter illogic of a 19th level paladin taking a level of Sorcerer for his next one and immediately having five magic missles.

 

[Darklone]

Same thing with clerics. Wanna have a lvl9 cleric (with lotsa spells) who shoots magic missiles and all other lvl1 wizard spells as a lvl10 wizard?

I agree that multiclassing is bad for spellcasters. But your solution is too good

 

[00]

I repeat myself (becouse this option actually costs the character something)

Why not use skill to determin caster level?
Personaly with my system.. (see link in thread below)

http://test.cyberstreet.com/showthr...&threadid=15542

I use Knowledge(Arcana), Knowledge(religion), or Knowledge(Nature) to determin the effective caster level for those respective classes. This allows Paladin/Clerics & Ranger/Druids to multiclass without suffering from a low caster level. Other classes can still improve the skill (and thus the caster level) but at the cost of a cross class skill.



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[hong]

You didn't ask me to be logical, you asked me to help with a rules problem!

My solution was mainly a balance point. Essentially what I was saying was "You can't have an effective caster level higher than twice your ACTUAL caster level through taking other classes." This helps avoid the worst crippling of multi-class characters without the utter illogic of a 19th level paladin taking a level of Sorcerer for his next one and immediately having five magic missles.

Well, you can find a rationalisation for anything. Hey, if D&D managed to live for 25 years with hit points, spell memorisation and weapon speed factors, verisimilitude is clearly not one of its design objectives.

In the case of this proposed rule change, yes, the 19/1 pal/wiz and the 1/19 wiz/pal would have exactly the same power level, just as would be the case under the current system. A handwave for this rule change might say that the potency of the spells you cast has to do with your innate strength of spirit, or heroism, or divine favour -- things that relate to your overall character level. It would be like a magical version of hit points. An Xth level character is an Xth level character, regardless of how they got there.

And really, is being able to cast a 5d4+5 magic missile, instead of a 1d4+1 magic missile, so illogical for a 20th level character who's fighting CR 20 monsters?

 

[Tony Vargas]

3E multiclassing does allow character abilities to stack, in general. Caster level, though, can't easily be one of these. If you MC a caster/non-caster, the non-caster has no caster levels to contribute. If you MC a caster/caster each has it's own spell list, spells/day and caster level.

To retain balance and allow a caster/non-caster to stack levels, non-casters would have to be given caster levels that have some meaningful effect for them - for instance you could re-work the magic system so that spellcasting requires an opposed caster level check to affect someone...

To retain balance and allow a caster/caster to stack levels, you'd have to, at least, consolidate thier spells/day...

Either would be a major change to the rules.

PrCs can be one way to address the issue. For instance, instead of being a Fighter/Wizard your whole carreer you could change to Bladesinger or Spellsword. Instead of evenly advancing as a Sorcerer/Druid you could change to Geomancer.

I also have a minor 'solution' I'm considering for caster/caster combinations:

Blended Technique [Metamagic]
&nbsp&nbsp&nbsp You combine different spellcasting techniques to make a spell more potent.
&nbsp&nbsp&nbsp Prerequisites: Ability to cast the same spell from two different lists (Wizard & Sorcerer lists count as 'different' for this purpose).
&nbsp&nbsp&nbsp Benefits: When you use a spell with this metamagic feat as part of your daily spells for two (or more) caster classes you have, you add your levels in those classes together to determine your caster level for that spell. A Blended spell takes up a slot of the same level as the spell normally does, but it takes up a slot from each class involved, and both are used when the spell is cast. Casting a Blended spell does not take extra time, though if one of the classes involved is casting spontaneously, the usual time increase aplies.

EX: A Cleric 5/Wiz 5 has Dispel Magic in his spellbook. This spell is also available as Cleric spell. He chooses to prepare Blended Dispel Magic, taking up one third level Cleric spell slot and one third level Wizard spell slot. When he casts Dispel Magic, both spell slots are used up, but the Dispel functions as if he were from a 10th level caster.

EX: A Wiz 5/Sor 6 has Fireball in his Spellbook. He chooses to prepare Blended Fireball in both of his 3rd level Wiz slots. If he wishes to cast one of these fireballs, he must also spontaneously 'Blend,' a Fireball as a Sorcerer, taking a FRA to cast, and using one 3rd level spell for the day as a Sorcerer and one of the prepared Blended Fireballs, but inflicting 10d6 damage (as an 11th level caster). The character could also use regular spontaneous fireballs, inflicting 6d6, as normal. If he were to use all his 3rd level spells for the day as a Sorcerer, the prepared Blended Fireballs would be useless, as there is nothing to combine them with.

 

[hong]

3E multiclassing does allow character abilities to stack, in general. Caster level, though, can't easily be one of these. If you MC a caster/non-caster, the non-caster has no caster levels to contribute. If you MC a caster/caster each has it's own spell list, spells/day and caster level.

None of this changes, except for the last bit. Basically, caster level == character level under this rule change. Any spell effect that depends on caster level at the moment just uses character level instead.

To retain balance and allow a caster/non-caster to stack levels, non-casters would have to be given caster levels that have some meaningful effect for them - for instance you could re-work the magic system so that spellcasting requires an opposed caster level check to affect someone...

To retain balance and allow a caster/caster to stack levels, you'd have to, at least, consolidate thier spells/day...

Either would be a major change to the rules.

D00d, what on earth are you talking about?

 

[BigAl]

hong,

I know what you mean, it's a big minus to multiclassing when caster levels don't stack.

My campaign has a house rule for this: If a spell could be cast from multiple classes, then the caster levels stack. For example, a sorcerer 6/wizard 5 casting dispel magic would cast it with a caster level of 11, because either of his classes could cast dispel magic. A sorcerer 4/wizard 5 would cast it at level 5 because the sorcerer class can't cast dispel magic yet. A cleric 7/wizard 5 would only get caster level 7 from any healing spells because wizards can't cast healing spells

Of course, using this system, fighters would never contribute to caster levels.

- Al

 

[Fenris]

Hong,
The more I read this the more I am inclined towards it. I still have those qualms about the Fighter 19/Wiz1 casting a spell as twenthieth level. Actually I would only have a problem if the wizard level was his last level. If he started out as a wizard 1 then added 19 levels of fighter it works OK. But essentially, if I may put words in your mouth, what you are saying is that multiclassing with spellcasters is that they lose the depth of the casting (fewer high level spells) and quantity but that they do not lose efficacy? I have a question what happens with the classes that have delayed spell caster levels (Paladins and Rangers)? How do you work in their casting levels? Three less than their class level? So a Fighter 1/Paladin 3 could cast first level spells (assuming he has bonus spells). Would that be correct in this system? I do like the system but I would appreciate more examples and elaboration.

 

[BigAl]

I don't think it makes sense for non-spellcasting classes to contribute to caster level, regardless of the "order" in which the classes are taken.

Take a barbarian. He can't even read. He's been raised in the wild. He's a ferocious warrior who likes to eat his enemies' heads. However, if he takes a single level of sorcerer, suddenly he is a potent spellcaster as well.

If he started with a single level of sorcerer, and then advanced as a barbarian, I still see problems. Why should his combat prowess contribute to his sorcerer abilities? It is very unbalancing and doesn't really make sense without some pretty serious rationalization.

- Al