Relativly new DM needs some help: How to run a Dragon encounter (alot of Questions)

[WonkaMania]

Hello everyone, thanks for looking.

I'm a relatively new DM and I thought I'd like to throw my PC's up against a legendary creature, a Dragon! I have a well-balanced group of 6 players, all 2nd lvl characters. They consist of: Paladin, Cleric, Fighter, Rogue, Bard, Wizard. I would like to pit them against either a Very Young Red Dragon (CR 4), or a Wyrmling Red Dragon (CR 3). On one hand, I don't want the CR 4 to be too tough, but on the other, I don't want the CR 3 to be too easy. Since there is 6 of them, even though they are only 2nd lvl, their "effective" party lvl average is 3. I think throwing the CR 4 at them would be good, yes?

Ok, I *don't* want the Dragon to flat-out kill the PC's though! I *do* want it to be a challenging, fun encounter that they remember for quite some time to come (both in game, and out)! I *do* want the PC's to defeat the Dragon! I would say that I want the PC's to kill the Dragon, because I want them to get the XP from it. I'm not too sure, but I *think* I remember reading somewhere that if a party encountered a creature and "defeated" it by wounding it to the point that it ran off/ran away, they would still be awarded xp because they "overcame" the challenge? Is that true or not? (is it stated in the rules somewhere, if so, do you remember where?) If that is true, that could potentially change things, as in the Dragon not fighting to the death. (I already have a re-occuring enemy set up from the very first adventure they went on, and I think a Dragon as one is just a bit too extreme.. hehe) Let's assume that this is *not* the case though, and for the PC's to get XP, they need to kill the Dragon.

Now, I want to pit them against a Red Dragon, because that is what makes sense for the area they are in. I would set it up by the villagefolk asking the PC's to investigate the area, because there has been something that flies around in the night snatching up their livestock and flying away with it. (I was thinking Lambs, because in this case the Dragon will only be either Medium or Large size. I'm going to go with Large size because I think the CR 4 is good for them, unless you all think otherwise. Obviously there will be more "plot hook" then just that, but that's the quick and dirty basics of it)

Now, I figure that for the PC's to be able to defeat the Dragon, they will need to have *full* resources. This means fully rested and all spells available. This puts me in a bind though. I was going to have the Dragon in a cave lair in the mountainside. I was also thinking that it would be pretty dull/boring if the PC's just walked right up in there without anything happening to them on the way. So, I was thinking of having a Kobold tribe that worships the Dragon. It would make sense to me that the Dragon would have the Kobolds at the front portion of his cave so that he has "gaurds" to his lair, and like I said, they would be worshipping him, so it would just kind of make sense. This of course, would drain the PC's resources (the very few arcane and divine spells that they will have) before facing the Dragon, and I think this would *significantly* lower their chance of survival.
(on further thinking, perhaps I can set it up so that the cave goes so deep, and by the time the PC's get there they will have rested.. this could possibly work?)

Now, what is to say that the Dragon won't just fly away when it is badly wounded? Red Dragon's *are* VERY covetous of their treasure (they are the most covetous of all Dragons) and therefore I think that it would stay and fight to the death to gaurd it's treasure. On the other hand, what is to say that the Dragon will not figure out that if it runs away, it will grow older and more powerful and even though it has to give up this treasure, it will amass greater treasure later. Yet again on the other hand, it's Intelligence at this point (Very Young) will only be 12.

Gah.. the more I think about it, how can I NOT kill the PC's with this type of encounter?? It can breathe it's breath weapon every 1d4 rounds. That's insane.. that means on lucky die rolls, it could possibly breath 2 rounds in a row, normal attack the next round, then breath again the round after that. A Very Young Red Dragon's breath weapon would be 4d10 Reflex 18 for half. That just seems like *alot* of dmg to throw at the PC's. (On the other hand, if I went with Wyrmling it'd be 2d10, Reflex 15 for half) What seemed to be a way cool idea looks to be turning into a slaughterfest.

Technical questions:

Fly:
The Monster Manual says that a Very Young Red Dragon can fly at a speed of 150 ft (poor). Problem is, where is the meneuverability "poor" described at? It's not in the front of the MM, and it's not in the Index of the DMG.

Feats:
The Dragon entry says that all Dragons have 1 feat, plus 1 feat for every 4 hit die. Under "Hit Dice" for the Very Young Red Dragon it says "10d12 +30". This means that it would get 3 feats, and 10 HD worth of skill points? In contrast, a Great Wyrm Red Dragon would have 11 Feats and 40 HD worth of Skill Points?? OR, is each different age category a new "hit die"..?
(Upon further reflection, it would seem the first instance is true. As the Very Young Red Dragon's hit dice says "10d12 +30", it has a Con score of 17, which equates to +3, and if it had 10 HD, that would explain where the "+30" comes from, so I think I just answered my own question..?)

Tactics:
As said above the Red Dragon is the most covetous of all Dragons, and I think it might stay and fight to the death to gaurd it's treasure. Now, if the Dragon saw 6 armed/armoured "people" walk into it's lair, weapons drawn, I would think that it would use it's advantage and fight from the air, using it's breath weapon every chance it got. Wouldn't it also stay on *one* target untill it dropped it? (very bad for the PC's) Or is it not that intelligent? Or, even though it is facing 6 armed/armoured individuals, would it land and melee them because it wouldn't want to "destroy any treasure they might be carrying" like it says in the DMG. BUT, that entry says for "small, weak creatures"... I don't think Medium sized pc's would account for "small, weak creatures" to a Large sized Dragon. Also, like said earlier, what is to stop it from just flying away? (this is more of a general question, as I've always pretty much wondered this... that of course goes against what I want, which is for the PC's to be able to defeat the Dragon, but I also want it to seem logical)

Argghh.. you can see how much I need the help!

Treasure:
It states that the Dragon's treasure is "Double Standard". Now, this is where my DM newness really shows. Since the party is average effective lvl 3, and I will be throwing 1 CR 4 creature against them, the chart on DMG pg 101 shows me that this is an Encounter Level of either 3, 4, or 5. First off, that's pretty confusing, how do I determine which it is? I would tend to think maybe the highest because Dragon's are so hard? How do you tell otherwise?

Ok, so let's take it that it's a 5. So I then go to table 7-4 on page 170 of the DMG and look at 5. Would I then roll 3 different percentile dice, one for coins, one for goods, and one for Items? That's just for "standard", correct?
To take into account the "double standard" rating of the Dragon, would I either: A- base my treasure off of the "5" and just roll twice for eatch thing? (coins, goods, items), OR, B: base my treasure off of "double 5" which would be 10 and roll on that table? I'm kinda thinking it's A because what would you do for a Dragon's Treasure that is a CR of 20! hehe.


Ok, so you can probably see that I need alot of help, BUT, I want this to happen because I think it would be really fun!

Any help/advice/tactics would be appreciated, as long as what *you* would do as a DM in this situation is appreciated! (I understand it's not really a "situation" as it's something that I am creating. I *don't* want to kill the PC's though, because I put them up against something that *I* wanted them to fight that they couldn't handle! However, I will *not* railroad my PC's into doing this. They can choose not to investigate, and also to run when they find out it's going to be a Dragon they're going to face when they get to the lair) Do you think they can handle this?

Enough babbling for now, and thanks for any replies in advance! (if the mods don't mind, I'd like to have this in both the General Forums, and the Rules Forums, as it kind of belongs in both I think? Also, not all people check both forums and therefore I'd get a wide array of different answers. Feel free to only have it exist in one place if you the Mods feel that is best though )

 

[Dr. Zoom]

Gah.. the more I think about it, how can I NOT kill the PC's with this type of encounter?? It can breathe it's breath weapon every 1d4 rounds. That's insane.. that means on lucky die rolls, it could possibly breath 2 rounds in a row, normal attack the next round, then breath again the round after that. A Very Young Red Dragon's breath weapon would be 4d10 Reflex 18 for half. That just seems like *alot* of dmg to throw at the PC's. (On the other hand, if I went with Wyrmling it'd be 2d10, Reflex 15 for half) What seemed to be a way cool idea looks to be turning into a slaughterfest.

The very young Red is Large, has 10 ft. reach, 4d10 damage cone of fire breath weapon (cone gets multiple targets more easily), 95 hit points on average, +14 primary attack bonus, great saves, good AC, a bite attack for 1d8+5, 2 claw attacks for 2d6+2 each, 2 wing attacks for 1d6+2 each, and 1 tail slap for 1d8+2. This spells doom for your players. Go with the wyrmling, especially if it has kobold slaves.

Fly:
The Monster Manual says that a Very Young Red Dragon can fly at a speed of 150 ft (poor). Problem is, where is the meneuverability "poor" described at? It's not in the front of the MM, and it's not in the Index of the DMG.

DMG, page 69.

Feats:
The Dragon entry says that all Dragons have 1 feat, plus 1 feat for every 4 hit die. Under "Hit Dice" for the Very Young Red Dragon it says "10d12 +30". This means that it would get 3 feats, and 10 HD worth of skill points? In contrast, a Great Wyrm Red Dragon would have 11 Feats and 40 HD worth of Skill Points?? OR, is each different age category a new "hit die"..?

3 feats and 10 HD worth of skill points. Note that 3.5e changes monster feat and skill progression to be the same as characters get (1 and 1 every 3 HD).

Tactics are up to you, but the dragon should take to the air if possible and use its breath weapon first. It should toy with them for as long as possible, and then kill them all. IMO, the dragon will flee only to save his own neck, which should not be necessary with the very young red.

For the treasure table, roll twice for each entry on the 5th level line. You dont use the 10th level line. There are a variety of ways to determine the treasure from this chapter in the DMG, and you can use whichever method suits your game.

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

Good grief that's a long post. You might try boiling the questions down and posting to the General board with [BADD] in the title (bothered about disposable dragons seems to get lots of responses). Anyway, here goes:

CR: For your party of 6, CR4 is fine, shouldn't have too many losses.

XP: It's up to you what your definition of defeating the challenge is -- you can award partial XP for driving it off but not killing it, for example, or full XP for getting it to leave the region forever. Yes, any dragon worthy of the name will retreat when badly wounded, but a young one might be too full of itself to run, or it might be defending its lair or its hoard. An option for the party would be to encounter the dragon, wound it, dragon retreats to lair, and party hunts it down and finishes it off there.

Hook: That's a good one for a small dragon. Or maybe it was first lambs, but last night a small child disappeared, and all that was left behind was the claws marks (this way, the party still has to find the lair and rescue the child, who hasn't been eaten yet).

Lair: Guards are good, but a very young dragon of the type you're talking about might have only been on his own for a ahort period of time -- perhaps it doesn't have any guardians. Or, perhaps the party first encounters it in the wilderness, fights it and the dragon withdraws, and then they prepare and track it to its lair to kill it. The final encounter is more climactic that way.

Flying away: See my notes above -- two encounters gives the PCs time to prepare & survuve.

Killing the party: Yep, a real risk. That's the fun of fighting dragons. Our party of 5 4th-level characters just took on a young (CR 5) blue and there was one fatality. Adventuring isn't for the weak of heart! Your rogue has evasion, and should be fine if a save is made; 4d10 averages 20 points damage, so the fighter types might survive the breath even with a failed save. The mage better try not to get toasted!

Fly: Maneuverability is on page 69 of the DMG.

Feats: You are correct, go by HD. Good dragon feats are Power attack, Cleave, and Hover (I used against my party with devastating effect ...)

Tactics: You're on -- at this age it's intelligent but not super-bright. It could open with a breath weapon, fly into the center of the gourp and hover, focusing on the biggest threat, but as it gets enraged it lashes out at whomever damages it. It takes real party teamwork to win this kind of encounter.

Hover is your friend, here. With hover, the dragon's maneuverability becomes less important -- and it can attack with bite, all four claws, and tail slap in the same round.

Treasure: Base it off of 4, and roll twice, or double quantities (don't double the level, just the amount) -- but I really recommend choosing appropriate treasure for these sorts of encounters, rather than ramdomly generating it. Perhaps you can plant a magic item that provides a hook for a later adventure, or something.

Have fun. Regardless of the outcome, a fight with a dragon always makes a good session. It _should_ be tough on the party -- you don't want them blase about dragons!

Edit: Gah, forgot this bugger has reach! Yeah, you might want to go a size category smaller, or use a slightly different dragon (blue, green). It'll be a tough fight, but a prepared party, using good teamwork, could win it.

 

[Obrin]

On the other hand, what is to say that the Dragon will not figure out that if it runs away, it will grow older and more powerful and even though it has to give up this treasure, it will amass greater treasure later. Yet again on the other hand, it's Intelligence at this point (Very Young) will only be 12.

A 12 Int is higher than the average human Int. If you think a typical peasant in your world can figure it out, the dragon can definitely figure it out... in fact, to look at a race with a longer outlook on lifespan, if you think a 280 year old elf can think of it, than a Dragon could think of it (Considering an average INT elf, with the age related INT bonuses)

However, after writing that, the wisdom (common sense) might be a better measure, combined with INT, as to what the dragon might decide to do.

 

[WonkaMania]

AWESOME replies guys!

Thanks for picking apart my post Olgar!

Question about the reach of a Large Dragon though, would that apply to *all* of it's attacks? (Bite, claws, wings, tail slap).

After looking over it and rethinking it, I think it might be best to go with a well played Wyrmling. I'm just fearing that when it gets down on the ground within the PC's reach they'll tear it apart quickly

I did post in the General forum too, here's a repost of what I was saying about my party and my fears about the Wyrmling:


Problem is, I just don't want the CR 3 Wyrmling to be *too* easy for them. it has 59 HP's, and an AC of 16. The bard is an archer, the Paladin is quite powerful as well as the Fighter, the Cleric is a high-strength melee oriented type, and the Rogue will be sneak-attacking like crazy with his Elven ThinBlade. The Wizard, well it's your average 2nd lvl Wizard.. hehe. That's why I was thinking of going for the Very Young, as it would bump it's AC and HP up a bit to give it more of a chance vs. the PC's I would think..?

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

Reach applies to all attacks.

The wyrmling is probably a little on the weak side for that large a party, but well played will still be a challenge. It will have fewer attacks (no tail slap), and fewer feats.

Nothing says you can't beef up one or tone down the other, either -- more hp, higher ability scores. The MM versions are just "average" samples, after all.

 

[Vysirez]

One thing you can do if you decide to go with the wyrmling is give it a bit better then average hps. Max hps for a wrymling red dragon is 98hps. So if you are worried it might die a bit too easily then give it like 85hps. Plus don't forget that any magic items it has as tresure might be items it is using.


Edit: Looks like I should have read more of Olgars post. As you can tell I agree with him....

 

[Pax]

Hello everyone, thanks for looking.

I'm a relatively new DM and I thought I'd like to throw my PC's up against a legendary creature, a Dragon! I have a well-balanced group of 6 players, all 2nd lvl characters.

If the dragon is any older than a newly-laid EGG -- don't do it. You're looking at a very probable TPK, bigtime.

IMO, characters shouldn't even run into the smaller dragon varieties until 6th level -- AT LEAST.

A well-GMed, smart dragon's EL should be as much as double its' ra CR -- possibly even more.

They consist of: Paladin, Cleric, Fighter, Rogue, Bard, Wizard. I would like to pit them against either a Very Young Red Dragon (CR 4)

Played smartly, almost a guaranteed TPK in ... maybe 3-4 rounds ... this would (with properly uprated CRs for dragons) constitute an EL10-ish encounter, of course.

or a Wyrmling Red Dragon (CR 3).

The EL would drop by 2-ish, so the time to TPK woudl likely double. Slim chance one or two of your party manages to (barely) survive, probably by turning tail and running away.

On one hand, I don't want the CR 4 to be too tough, but on the other, I don't want the CR 3 to be too easy. Since there is 6 of them, even though they are only 2nd lvl, their "effective" party lvl average is 3. I think throwing the CR 4 at them would be good, yes?

All dragons are under-valued for CR (intentionally so, though I don't agree with that policy). Bump the CR of all dragons up by 1/3 to 1/2 of their listed values, and then round UP -- so the two dragons you've described are CR4-5 and CR5-6, respectively.

Ok, I *don't* want the Dragon to flat-out kill the PC's though! I *do* want it to be a challenging, fun encounter that they remember for quite some time to come (both in game, and out)! I *do* want the PC's to defeat the Dragon! I would say that I want the PC's to kill the Dragon, because I want them to get the XP from it. I'm not too sure, but I *think* I remember reading somewhere that if a party encountered a creature and "defeated" it by wounding it to the point that it ran off/ran away, they would still be awarded xp because they "overcame" the challenge? Is that true or not? (is it stated in the rules somewhere, if so, do you remember where?) If that is true, that could potentially change things, as in the Dragon not fighting to the death. (I already have a re-occuring enemy set up from the very first adventure they went on, and I think a Dragon as one is just a bit too extreme.. hehe) Let's assume that this is *not* the case though, and for the PC's to get XP, they need to kill the Dragon.

Around ... 3d level, our party of EIGHT, encountered ONE very young White dragon.

Our bard died (killed outright) with the first breath weapon; my sorceror, with a successful save, was only driven to -1hp. The rest of the party was conscious -- but generally, only by a NARROW margin ...

This was a CR(4) dragon, against a party TWICE as strong (by dint of having 8 PCs around) as the rules suggest a CR3 encounter for. It wasn't in it's lair, either, so it did NOT have home court advantage.

I strongly advise AGAINST putting these guys up against a dragon so SOON in their careers. Let 'em encounter a kobold lair or two, build up to 4th or 5th level, while tracking DOWN that CR3-4 Red Dragon ...

 

[Murrdox]

Gee, I wouldn't be THAT pessimistic. I definitely wouldn't go with the very young, and I'd stick with the wyrmling.

One idea, if you're worried that the party is going to slaughter the wyrmling... give it a few kobold guards in its lair. The kobolds will provide some extra targets so that the PCs don't concentrate on beating the hell out of the dragon, and they could actually do a good bit of damage if the PCs just ignore them. Maybe 3 kobold guards?

I like the idea, though, and the fact that you want to use dragons nicely. Keep at it! If you put this much thought into ALL the encounters you throw at your party, you'll have a great campaign going.

 

[WonkaMania]

Hey, thanks for the compliment Murrdox!

My players are really enjoying the campaign alot, it's a really good mix between roleplaying and killing things This of course will be roleplayed really well (the whole plot hook, lead up to it and all), but let's face it, at least half of the fun from DM comes from killing stuff

I'm glad I'm getting alot of responses, and some seem to be really varied. I also have a thread over in the General boards about this as well. Some people seem to say go for it, one even said not to give them *any* warning! (hehe, I couldn't do that! Like I said, I don't want to kill them, and I *do* want them to kill it!)

I'm also getting alot of responses saying to hold off, and not to do it. Pax, the whole reason this came about, was that I was reading through the Sunless Citadel to compare things/get ideas. That adventure is suppossed to be for 4 1st lvl characters, and in it, it throws them against a CR 1 Wyrmling White Dragon! After reading various story hours a while back and remembering how many people dispatched of the Dragon, I thought it would be a great idea as well. It's just that White doesn't fit the area I'd want them to be in, *and* my group is *very* high-powered/powerful. Like I said, it's tough to throw challenging monsters at them because they are such good players, they are powerful, and there is 6 of them (Maybe I should have said I gave them a rediculously high point buy? Meaning, above 32.. hehe)

Here's a repost from the other thread on where I gave a bit more details of just *how* I'm thinking of running the encounter:


More good replies. As for why is it out on it's own? Well, it says that younger/less intelligent Evil Dragons tend to lay clutches of 1d4+1 eggs around the countryside. This one would have been part of just a 2 egg laying and I was thinking that it killed it's sibling off in a fight over food or some such. It then relocated to where it currently is, in the kobolds cave. It strode into their lair and told them that it was taking over and they could either accept that or be roasted dinner. They of course accepted and the Dragon made his way down to the lowest portion of the cave.

This also explains why the Dragon can't fly around too much, as the cave that he is residing in isn't too big. Maybe 20 foot at the most, with the way out being through the 10 foot tunnel that led into it. The kobolds are working on excavating the Dragon's "lair" out to make it bigger. This could give me a reason to have a few kobolds in the lair as well.

The Dragon will smell the humans and elves coming, thinking that his kobolds had captured them and where bringing them to him as a present, he will speak out to the kobolds about what a good job they did. (the Wizard that speaks Draconic will be the only one who understands this)

Upon seeing the adventurers stride into his lair, he will be so angered (A- that they got into his lair, B- that his kobold worshippers failed him) that he glides down off of his perch infront of them and just starts madly attacking with his melee weapons. (This means only the people who are *suppossed* to be in the front will take the initial brunt of the dmg)

From there I'm assuming that the PC's would want to surround him/spread out a bit. Seeing how the fight goes from there I can decide when to let loose with the breath weapon. Remember, Red Dragons try not to obliterate with their breath weapon for fear of hurting treasure. I figure once the PC's get it to half HP he will start letting loose with the breath weapon. (I'm going to make it a Wyrmling)

Perhaps I will make the cave only 15 feet high. That way the Dragon *can* still take to the air, but it won't be "out of reach" of the PC's. Considering they are 5 feet tall, and threaten the 5 feet square above them, that counts for 10 feet. Then they just have to use the Jump skill in concert with their attacks to jump up the extra height to hit the Dragon (that IS possible in the rules, yes? They just make their attack at the hieght of their jump) All the while the Bard and Wizard is lobbing arrows/bolts into the thing, it might make my fighting types think about getting reach weapons, and the Dragon can't be physically attacking the PC's at this point (unless it "redies" for when one jumps up at it)

How does this sound?