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5E Reliable Talent and Disadvantage - order of precedence?

Quartz

Adventurer
I'm having a momentary brain fade here. Is Disadvantage applied before or after Reliable Talent? That is, if you have Reliable Talent and roll with Disadvantage you roll both skill and Disadvantage dice and have an absolute minimum of 10? Or do you roll your skill die, take a minimum of 10, then roll the Disadvantage die and take the lesser result?

In mathematical terms is it

MAX (MIN (d20,d20),10))

or

MIN (MAX (d20,10), d20)
 

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dnd4vr

The Smurfiest Wizard Ever!
Feel free to review this thread I started:


In your mathematical terms most people play it MAX (MIN (d20,d20),10)).
 



Li Shenron

Legend
I'm having a momentary brain fade here. Is Disadvantage applied before or after Reliable Talent? That is, if you have Reliable Talent and roll with Disadvantage you roll both skill and Disadvantage dice and have an absolute minimum of 10? Or do you roll your skill die, take a minimum of 10, then roll the Disadvantage die and take the lesser result?

In mathematical terms is it

MAX (MIN (d20,d20),10))

or

MIN (MAX (d20,10), d20)
Neither.

You roll both d20 and you choose one of them to become 10 if lower.
 

Mort

Hero
Supporter
Neither.

You roll both d20 and you choose one of them to become 10 if lower.
Are you saying that you get to apply reliable talent to only one of the rolls? So if you roll a 6 and a 4 you can change the 4 but must keep the 6 (now the lower of the two)?

Because that's certainly NOT the way I read "Whenever you make an ability check that lets you add your proficiency bonus, you can treat a d20 roll of 9 or lower as a 10."

Seems clear that both the 6 AND 4 are d20 rolls, so both are treated as a 10.
 
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FreeTheSlaves

Explorer
I don't use order of operations, rather I use the solution for which all conditions are true.

Let's say a Rogue-11 has disadvantage on stealth due to exhaustion. They need to sneak past a Goblin guard. They roll stealth at disadvantage (3 and 15). That 3 then triggers Reliable Talent, replacing it with a 10.
 

jgsugden

Legend
Are you saying that you only get to apply reliable talent to only one of the rolls? So if you roll a 6 and a 4 you can change the 4 but must keep the 6 (now the lower of the two)?

Because that's certainly NOT the way I read "Whenever you make an ability check that lets you add your proficiency bonus, you can treat a d20 roll of 9 or lower as a 10."

Seems clear that both the 6 AND 4 are d20 rolls, so both are treated as a 10.
You can treat one single d20 roll as a 10 as part of an ability check. This impacts one die in disadvantage (or advantage).

The advantage and disadvantage rules are clear that you're rolling two dice as part of the same check.
Sometimes a special ability or spell tells you that you have advantage or disadvantage on an ability check, a saving throw, or an attack roll. When that happens, you roll a second d20 when you make the roll.
Thus, under RAW, if you roll a 4 and a 6, you can make the 4 a 10, but must still use the 6.
 

Mort

Hero
Supporter
You can treat one single d20 roll as a 10 as part of an ability check. This impacts one die in disadvantage (or advantage).

The advantage and disadvantage rules are clear that you're rolling two dice as part of the same check.

Thus, under RAW, if you roll a 4 and a 6, you can make the 4 a 10, but must still use the 6.
That's a very narrow interpretation of "a d20. " It doesn't say a singe d20 it says "a" d20. As both rolls are still a d20 skill check, seems to be both are affected.

This isn't reroll a die like lucky or halfling luck which explicitly allowes the reroll of one die - it just bumps up any d20 of lower then 10 to 10.

Or an even easier way to look at it. Disadvantage applies to the roll, you roll a 6 and a 4 and must take the lower of the two: the 4 is your "roll" per disadvantage. But the roll is lower than 10 - your roll is a 10 per reliable talent.
 

FreeTheSlaves

Explorer
RELIABLE T ALENT
By 11th levei, you have refined your chosen skills until they approach perfection. Whenever you make an ability check that lets you add your proficiency bonus, you can treat a d20 roll of 9 or lower as a 10.

No, I have to interpret that last clause as talking in general. It applies to however many d20 rolls you have to make as part of that ability check.

For a specific interpretation, I would require it to say "you can treat one d20 roll of..."

Furthermore, the idea of repeating the operation to check if there are now lower d20 roll results, tells me I'm digging a hole.
 


dnd4vr

The Smurfiest Wizard Ever!
Ahh, the arguments of the other thread all over again. :)

@Quartz just rule it however your table wants to run it.

Apply RT to both rolls (MOST GENEROUS)
Example. Roll 3 and 8, both become 10's. Apply disadvantage results in 10.
Example. Roll 7 and 18, the 7 becomes a 10. Apply disadvantage results in 10.

OR

Apply RT to the lowest of the 2d20s (MIDDLE ROAD)
If you roll both dice, and apply RT to the lower roll, and then have disadvantage result in the lower of the two dice.
Example. Roll 3 and 8. The 3 becomes 10 due to RT. But, because of disadvantage the lower 8 is the result.

OR

You MUST choose one die for RT. (LEAST GENEROUS)
Example. You roll a 6, it becomes a 10 because of RT. You roll another die due to disadvantage. It is a 2. The result is a 2.
Example. You roll a 15 and RT does not help, so it is a 15. You roll another die for disadvantage at get a 7. The result is 7.

I found in the course of the other thread that the middle road approach does not alter results that much compared to the most generous method. So, it is only if you decide to rule the least generous method, that RT doesn't help much once disadvantage is in play.

Just depends on what you want to have more impact? Disadvantage or Reliable Talent. :)
 

RAW it applies to both rolls. You cannot roll less than 10 with your leet skills ever. Which is the point of the ability - read the fluff: "you have refined your chosen skills until they approach perfection."

You can pick a lock whilst blindfolded, bound hand and foot, locked in a box and sunk to the bottom of a lake. See: Harry Houdini.
 

NotAYakk

Legend
RAW it applies to both rolls. You cannot roll less than 10 with your leet skills ever. Which is the point of the ability - read the fluff: "you have refined your chosen skills until they approach perfection."

You can pick a lock whilst blindfolded, bound hand and foot, locked in a box and sunk to the bottom of a lake. See: Harry Houdini.
Responding to a bunch of people carefully pointing out ambiguities and valid alternative readings with an unsupported "ONE TRUE RAW" post is a bit rude.
 


jgsugden

Legend
There is no ambiguity, here. When you have advantage or disadvantage, you make two rolls as part of one ability check. Reliable talent allows you to treat a (as in one) d20 roll of 9 or lower as a 10 during an ability check. You may not have read the language carefully before, but that does not make it ambiguous. While your skills may approach perfection, it does not mean they are perfect, and the ability does not say it is impossible to get a roll of less than 10. It could easily have said, "Whenever you make an ability check that lets you add your proficiency bonus, you can treat any d20 roll of 9 or lower as a 10. Instead, they left it at a (as in one). I'd be surprised if this very interaction was not considered, and if it is not the reason why the language specifies a rather than any. I believe they want you to have the potential for a low roll, even with reliable talent, when you have disadvantage.
RELIABLE T ALENT
By 11th level, you have refined your chosen skills until they approach perfection. Whenever you make an ability check that lets you add your proficiency bonus, you can treat a d20 roll of 9 or lower as a 10.
...
ADVANTAGE and DISADVANTAGE
Sometimes a special ability or spell tells you that you have advantage or disadvantage on an ability check, a saving throw, or an attack roll. When that happens, you roll a second d20 when you make the roll.
 

billd91

Hobbit on Quest
For me, the key is the difference between rolling a d20 and making an ability check. When you roll with advantage or disadvantage, you aren’t making 2 ability checks, you’re rolling 2 dice and the end result, whether the higher or lower, is the die rolled for the ability check.
If the class ability, such as reliable talent or portent or whatever, modifies the ability check, then it applies after advantage/disadvantage is applied and the applicable die is selected.
 

FreeTheSlaves

Explorer
The rule is using the 0th conditional, 'whenever' is a form of 'if', and the clauses are in the present tense. Therefore it is applying generally, that is 'all the time'.

This interpretation isn't 'generous,' it's simply the natural way to read the rule - and easiest to implement.
 

dnd4vr

The Smurfiest Wizard Ever!
This interpretation isn't 'generous,' it's simply the natural way to read the rule - and easiest to implement.
Considering a number of people don't read it that way, myself included at one time, it is the most "generous" reading of the rule. To me, after running all the numbers, the difference it makes simply isn't worth bothering with ruling it another way.
 

DMMike

Guide of Modos
Apply RT to both rolls (MOST GENEROUS)
Example. Roll 3 and 8, both become 10's. Apply disadvantage results in 10.
Example. Roll 7 and 18, the 7 becomes a 10. Apply disadvantage results in 10.
Sounds about right.

Apply RT to the lowest of the 2d20s (MIDDLE ROAD)
If you roll both dice, and apply RT to the lower roll, and then have disadvantage result in the lower of the two dice.
Example. Roll 3 and 8. The 3 becomes 10 due to RT. But, because of disadvantage the lower 8 is the result.
This ignores the higher roll as "a d20 roll of 10 or lower."

You MUST choose one die for RT. (LEAST GENEROUS)
Example. You roll a 6, it becomes a 10 because of RT. You roll another die due to disadvantage. It is a 2. The result is a 2.
Example. You roll a 15 and RT does not help, so it is a 15. You roll another die for disadvantage at get a 7. The result is 7.
This ignores the "whenever" portion of RT. However:

Rules as intended:
RT - your thief doesn't suck if she's proficient.
Disad - her average roll is lower than a single roll.

The RAW increase the average roll even when disadvantage applies. So it's up to the GM to decide to take the Middle Road or Least Generous, because the Most Generous ruling doesn't respect RAI.
 

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