Remorse vs. Deadly Lure - huh?

[Truename]

I usually trust that WoTC's done a pretty good job of balancing the game. Even when something appears to be unbalanced, I figure there's some hidden factor that makes it more balanced that it looks.

But I can't figure out the Cleric Attack 13 powers Remorse and Deadly Lure at all.

Deadly Lure is a ranged 5 attack, Wis vs. Will, that attacks one creature. The target gains vuln 2+Wis (so, 7-8 ish?) until EoYNT. It also moves towards the cleric taking the safest path.

Remorse is a burst 1 within 5, Wis vs. Will, that attacks all enemies in burst. Each enemy gains vuln 10 and is dazed. Every ally can spend a healing surge.

So what am I missing here? Remorse attacks more creatures, applies a greater vulnerability, dazes(!), AND offers a healing surge. In exchange, Deadly Lure moves its one enemy next to the cleric... whoop-de-do.

They're both from Divine Power, so it's not power creep. What's going on here? Why would anyone ever take Deadly Lure?

 

[Stalker0]

I usually trust that WoTC's done a pretty good job of balancing the game. Even when something appears to be unbalanced, I figure there's some hidden factor that makes it more balanced that it looks.

But I can't figure out the Cleric Attack 13 powers Remorse and Deadly Lure at all.

Deadly Lure is a ranged 5 attack, Wis vs. Will, that attacks one creature. The target gains vuln 2+Wis (so, 7-8 ish?) until EoYNT. It also moves towards the cleric taking the safest path.

Remorse is a burst 1 within 5, Wis vs. Will, that attacks all enemies in burst. Each enemy gains vuln 10 and is dazed. Every ally can spend a healing surge.

So what am I missing here? Remorse attacks more creatures, applies a greater vulnerability, dazes(!), AND offers a healing surge. In exchange, Deadly Lure moves its one enemy next to the cleric... whoop-de-do.

They're both from Divine Power, so it's not power creep. What's going on here? Why would anyone ever take Deadly Lure?

The trick here is that even though the creature takes the "safest" path towards you, doesn't mean its safe. If you have 3 melee guys around the creature when it moves, that's 3 OA's right there. If you are on the other side of a cliff and use the power, the creature is going over the cliff (technically this isn't forced movement, so the saving throw rule doesn't apply although I'm sure many DMs would rule the save anyway).


I think remorse is generally a better power, but with the right party and a DM that likes terrain effects, deadly lure can be quite...deadly.

 

[Truename]

The trick here is that even though the creature takes the "safest" path towards you, doesn't mean its safe. If you have 3 melee guys around the creature when it moves, that's 3 OA's right there.

Okay, I think I get it. I hadn't considered the OAs. (My party is ranged focused and can't OA to save its lives.) Assuming 5 PCs total each attacking the target, and a melee heavy party that gets 3 OAs, Deadly Lure gets you 50% * 7 vuln * 3 OAs = 10.5 vulnerability damage from OAs, plus 50% * 7 vuln * 5 PCs = 17.5 vulnerability damage from PCs over the course of the next turn, plus 50% * 13 dmg * 3 OAs = 19.5 from straight OA damage. That's roughly 47.5 damage to one creature, plus potential additional OA damage from feats and items, plus terrain effects.

Whereas Remorse gets you 60% * 10 vuln * 5 PCs = ~30 extra damage from vulnerability spread out over one or more creatures, plus action denial, possible combat advantage damage, greater likelihood of it affecting at least one target, nice stacking with other area attacks, and potential healing surges.

Looking at it that way, it seems quite balanced, particularly for a melee-heavy party. If that melee-heavy party also made use of a lot of hindering terrain, it could do some very nice spike damage.