Remove my Account Please

[Psionicist]

Remember Merlion that not all people are completely fluent in english so we (who aren't) might use expression that appear to be rude to other, and vice-versa I might add.

Oh my yes. It is also worth to point out that some users here are used to other forums where you have to use a certain kind of language, so other users will actually bother to read your post. You would be amazed at the language used in serious computer forums/news groups, where the general rule is:

Just get to the point
Cut through the bull.
We are trying to solve your problem, not help you.

 

[Merlion]

Merlion you seem to be very sensitive when dealing with people who disagree with your opinions or who do not believe that your rule changes are good

This is not the problem. Although yes, some times I find it annoying when people exhibit knee-jerk reactions and closemindedness. But real problems only occur, not they disagree with my opnions or believe my "rules changes" are not good...they occur when the person does so in a way that is rude, disrespectful, condesending, or unpleasant.

Just like with most other people in the world.

I do not believe that people who argue with you or dismiss your ideas intend to actually abuse or persecute you.

I disagree, in some cases. I think theres a lot of people in the world, and especially on the Internet, who say whatever they want to say with no regard for basic courtesy or empathy because they dont care, and because on the Internet, its easy and mostly consquence free.

But if you insist that others should accept your changes to the rules as balanced and reasonable while refusing to alter your ideas to address their concerns you will find a good deal of frustration and perhaps hostility

But rarely does anyone just express concerns. They proceed to tell me how laughable, or stupid or "broken" or unbalanced they are. How whatever it is that I am saying is irrelevent or needless.

And again I remind you, insulting (as in calling laughable, or stupid or something similiar) what someone says or thinks is pretty much paramount to doing the same to the person.

Also I believe that many people come off more aggressive and less playful than they intend so it works best if you cut them some slack

See, this is what I find strange. Whenever someone is rude, thoughtless, or otherwise unpleasant on the internet, and someone complains about it, its the person who complains that is told they need to alter their behaviour.
If someone does similiar things face to face, it usualy has unpleasant consquences for them.

Instead of me cutting slack, how about thoughtless people choose not to be thoughtless, and spend a little more time weighing their words before hurling them? Instead of me not being offended by offensive things, how about the offensive people dont do the offensive things?

Now, I admit I overeacted a little to that specfic post because I was already upset about things. But rudeness is rudeness, and in real life, its looked down on. Why should it be different here?

And I disagree, it is rare, very rare

Oh, its a little better than some other boards. But it still happens. I wouldnt call it rare or very rare. Maybe uncommon. But I've had numerous such experiences in the time I've been here. And inumerable experiences of the whole close minded, knee jerk reaction sort of thing, which isnt intentional or hurtful, just annoying.

 

[Merlion]

Well, I'd gladly consider anything you've posted here for potential publication in the ENWorld Gamer, our renamed and reborn magazine. While admittedly we prefer not to just print something people can get for free online, if the material is of good quality, we will use it.

I sent you an email a bit ago but got no response. I would be interested in looking into this.

 

[barsoomcore]

Again, insulting a person, and insulting what they think or say, is basicaly the same thing.

I actually disagree with this. I think that one of the most important understandings a person can come to is that attacks upon their ideas are NOT THE SAME as attacks against their person. It's this that makes debate a useful means of getting to the truth -- or of coming to the best solution for a problem. Everybody contributes their ideas, and attacks each others' and the best idea will survive.

That's only possible if everyone involved can maintain the intellectual distinction between their ideas and their ego. But that's how it's done.

I design software for a living and when three or four brilliant engineers (and me -- NOT a brilliant engineer let me assure you) hole up in a meeting room with a couple of whiteboards to decide how to implement a new feature, I can tell you that if somebody thinks an idea is stupid they don't hold back. As a non-brilliant non-engineer I certainly come in for a healthy share of the criticisms -- my ideas tend to be pretty stupid -- but I can't let it bother me. And it doesn't, because I know smart people have stupid ideas all the time. And I know that two smart people can disagree on what is a stupid idea.

I'll echo the others saying that ENWorld is a freakin' oasis of civilized discussion on the Internet. It's full of really really smart, passionate, articulate people who hold very strong opinions and often disagree and yet manage to keep the same civility and mutual respect that I see those brilliant engineers display. I just try to hold myself to the same standards I see the best people on these boards maintain.

 

[barsoomcore]

As an addendum, it's NICE for me if everyone conforms to my ideas as to what is appropriate language. But since I have no way to reliably communicate that, nor any compelling reason to offer as to why anyone should do so, I have to accept that people will converse in ways that I find inappropriate.

Rather than worry about their motives, or make a production out of how I wish they'd change, the best thing I think I can do is to address the substance of what they say and as much as possible ignore the tone of how they said it. If they've broken the EN World rules I let a moderator know. If not, then I bite my tongue and remind myself that not everyone has Mary Poppins as their personal hero.

 

[Camarath]

But rarely does anyone just express concerns. They proceed to tell me how laughable, or stupid or "broken" or unbalanced they are. How whatever it is that I am saying is irrelevent or needless.

And again I remind you, insulting (as in calling laughable, or stupid or something similiar) what someone says or thinks is pretty much paramount to doing the same to the person.

Merlion, in one thread [New Spells: Demolish, Root(Edited Demolish)(again) ] I responded to one of your spells. I felt that typeless damage justified a increase in the spell's level (from 4th to 5th). In lieu of that change (which you did not want to make) I suggested that you could have the spell deal sonic damage. You responded by saying "Uhh...like nothing has resistance to sonic anyway and people would be making the same complaint about it.". I found this rude and a bit flippent since no one other than me had voiced concerns about the spell being too strong. In my opinion using the nonexistent complaints of people not engaged in the discourse to dismiss another person's opinion out of hand is rather underhanded and shows a lack of respect for the other person. I have not responded to any of you subsequent posts because I did not feel that you cared about or would listen to my opinions.

I feel that you tend to look at people legitimate corncers as "knee-jerk reactions and closemindedness" and thus do not consider that they might have a point. Then when people support their points (such as in this thread [New race: The Sylvani. And a racial Prestige Class(Edited again) ]) you tend be rather dismissive and rarely change your opinion or suggested rule. I am not sure what you are looking for when you post here since you seem to feel put upon when people disagree with you (even when they use language no more rude than you yourself use) and only seem to respect those who agree with you (as is IMO evidence in this thread [New Spells: Mage Bolts, Vacuum Burst, Gravity Warp(edited)]).

 

[barsoomcore]

Instead of me cutting slack, how about thoughtless people choose not to be thoughtless, and spend a little more time weighing their words before hurling them? Instead of me not being offended by offensive things, how about the offensive people dont do the offensive things?

Wouldn't it be nice if it were possible to enforce this? But it's not and there's not a blessed thing you can do to make it so.

EXCEPT -- to set a good example for them to follow. You're the only element in the equation that you have any control over. Behave the way you think is best, and hope that people will see you doing so and decide to copy you. Some will and some won't and some that won't won't because they think what you're doing is stupid -- and who are you to say they're wrong? You'll reconsider what you think is best and change your mind and all but through everything the only thing you'll ever have any ability to control is YOU. So wishing you could make people behave the way you think is best is futile and only distracts you from the real task -- making yourself behave the way you think is best.

Sorry, ranting. Ms. Poppins comes out every now and then. Of course she's practically perfect in every way, so it's easy for her.

 

[Merlion]

I actually disagree with this. I think that one of the most important understandings a person can come to is that attacks upon their ideas are NOT THE SAME as attacks against their person. It's this that makes debate a useful means of getting to the truth -- or of coming to the best solution for a problem. Everybody contributes their ideas, and attacks each others' and the best idea will survive.

Ok, let me rephrase...allthough I would think you knew what I was getting at anyway.
Insulting a person, and insulting what they say, is not precisely exactly, the same thing. You can think highly of a person, but not every idea they have.
HOWEVER. Insulting what a person says and thinks, nine times out of ten is going to be just as rude, offensive and hurtful as hurting the person.

Especially when you make a special point of stating that you dont care if you give offense.

And besides which, it is very possible, even easy, to disagree with someone, to express your thoughts about the flaws in their ideas, without being rude or condenscending.

Wouldn't it be nice if it were possible to enforce this? But it's not and there's not a blessed thing you can do to make it so

No theres not. But their are things the moderators of these boards can do about it, when it happens on these boards.
The thing that sent me over the edge was the fact that a moderator posted in the thread, and didnt say word one about what was going on. Because to him, it was irrelevent. But if your going to have a community, your going to have to take everyones feelings thoughts and opnions into account to at least some degree. Not everyone has a super thick skin and just shrugs of rudeness and insults. This cant be done completely or all the time, I know that but again I will reiterate: What pushed me over the edge was not what Pax said, it was Hypersmurf ignoring the whole thing, and then acting like he didnt know what I was talking about when I said something.

Merlion, in one thread [New Spells: Demolish, Root(Edited Demolish)(again) ] I responded to one of your spells. I felt that typeless damage justified a increase in the spell's level (from 4th to 5th). In lieu of that change (which you did not want to make) I suggested that you could have the spell deal sonic damage. You responded by saying "Uhh...like nothing has resistance to sonic anyway and people would be making the same complaint about it.". I found this rude and a bit flippent since no one other than me had voiced concerns about the spell being too strong

Ok several things. First, you stated to me, essentially, that I should just ignore people being rude and act like it didnt happen. Those werent your exact words, but thats basicaly what you were getting at.
So why are you bringing this up now?

Nextly: Yes, I have gotten crabby in my threads some times when I shouldnt have. I post on several different boards, and I deal with a lot of untinctured crap on both of them. But I realize I shouldnt take out anger at the bad behaviour of the people of one board on those of another.

Although, that was not intended to be rude. It was just a statement of fact. I've been posting my stuff on these and other boards a long time, and I know how people react to stuff. I know what the trigers are.
Untyped damage
sonic damage
spells that deal damage and have a save other than reflex
force damage
and various other issues.

It doesnt excuse my bouts of irritability, but I have become cynical and jaded about these things. I get the same responses about mechanics again and again and again. And usualy, they are baseless. Usualy, its people who have decided that certain things arent allowed by the rules, or not at certain levels or whatever, when in fact its simply their opnion. The only existing rules about spell creation, are the damage dice caps. But people behave as though there were many other hard and fast, documented rules....when their arent.

I have not responded to any of you subsequent posts because I did not feel that you cared about or would listen to my opinions.

What I dont understand is, why didnt you say something to me? See thats what I dont get...if I did something to offend you, you should have said something instead of just deciding not to post on my threads. Or, if that was what you really wanted to do (or not do), you should have just kept doing it.

You see, another issue I encounter...people see discussion of things like spells as being purely about the mechanics. Your sonic energy suggestion was a valid one, but it would have completely defeated the purpose, flavour and feel of my spell. Ibased my Demolish spell on something specfic, and Sonic did not fit (in fact, I dont really care for Sonic much as far as energy attacks, to me it usualy feels more science fiction than fantasy...thats just me of course) And this is often the case...people make suggestions based just on wanting to bring it into their idea of balance, but that involve making it into something completely different and thereby defeating my purpose entirely.

As to me not listening to people's opnions...this is another thing I dont understand. I post my work after I am pretty sure I have it right, as a final means of conformation. If I dont agree with something someone suggests, I am not going to add it to my work. Doesnt mean I didnt care about or listen to it...just means I disagreed with it.
Its the writer/critic dynamic. I write, and I put things up for critique. I change mistakes, and I add or remove things as suggested that improve the work. But I am not obligated to make a change I disagree with just because someone says I should. ANd often, even if I agree with a suggestion, I will debate it at length, to be sure it is in fact a good idea.
Much of my work has been changed, and improved, drastically by imput from people on this and other boards.


The problem I have is, most of the responses I receive range from unhelpful and/or slightly annoying (such as my pet peeve of people coming in and stating, as a fact "This is overpowered". not "I think its overpowered" or "it might be to strong", but "Its overpowered" unequivcaly, and then they proceed to tell me why, with little or nothing to do about it), to unpleasant and rude.

I feel that you tend to look at people legitimate corncers as "knee-jerk reactions and closemindedness" and thus do not consider that they might have a point.

Again this is a matter of difference of opnion. What you call legitamate concerns are to me often cases of people just freaking out over something thats different. Not because its actually unbalanced, but because its different.
Such as the guy in the one thread you linked getting all over me for trying to create a "rogue killer" in the form of a spell that deals damage and allows a Fortitude rather than reflex save.

Thats actually a perfect example of one of the most annoying behaviours I discover...I often find that people latch on to a class that they feel "gets the shaft" or should have special priveleges, and if I write something that purely by chance, happens to be keyed to their weakness, the person proceeds to state that its unbalanced basicaly because it can hurt their pet class.

you tend be rather dismissive and rarely change your opinion or suggested rule.

Well, first of all as I've said, it does happen. Just because you've rarely seen it doesnt mean its all that rare (especially considering you've stated you didnt associate with my threads for a time).
Nextly, again, why would I change my work in a way that I feel is uneccesary or detrimental? Posting my work for critique in no way obligates me to implement every change a poster suggests.

I am not sure what you are looking for when you post here since you seem to feel put upon when people disagree with you

I feel put upon when people do certain things when they disagree. When they throw at me one of the responses I have heard dozens of times before. When they state their opnion as fact (this IS overpowered). When they claim that something is impossible to do in a balanced fashion just because nothing similiar has been done in the PH. When they accuse me of trying to create a "rogue killer" (or a "wizard killer" or a "fighter killer" or whatever). When they tell me its to powerful and why, but dont actually make any suggestions or say anything else helpful. When they make suggestions that involve making the thing into something completely different that has nothing to do with what I am trying to do.

As for what I am looking for...I am looking for thoughts and opnions, on both the balance and flavour of my work.

What I often tend to get, is statements of the fact of how "broken" it is, and suggestions on how to fix it by making it into something entirely different.

But thats fine, because as I said, I've also gotten a lot of useful feedback. But, I dont tolerate rudeness...just as I expect people not to tolerate rudeness from me (which I try my best to avoid).

and only seem to respect those who agree with you (as is IMO evidence in this thread [New Spells: Mage Bolts, Vacuum Burst, Gravity Warp(edited)]).

I respect people who 1) have an open mind and 2) behave respectfully toward me, wether they agree or disagree with me.
Your quoting/linking that thread rather erroneusly...CyberZombie didnt exactly totaly agree with me on all points. The issue of the saving throws for instance...she saw both sides, and how it could go either way. And that was why I said what I said about her responses...and partially relief, since I was getting dogpiled not just with disagreement or criticism, but borderline attacks and accusations.

And really, I have to wonder why you've gone to the trouble of all this linking etc. It sounds very much to me like your just trying to prove that I am the problem. So...are you trying to encourage me to stay....or subtle indicate you'd just as soon I left?

Truthfully, there isnt a whole lot of reason for me to post anymore. I cant post any of my work that I wish to try and publish. And when I start discussion threads, it usualy ends badly. But, I will continue, because I do enjoy debate, and because their are insights to be found.

 

[Camarath]

And really, I have to wonder why you've gone to the trouble of all this linking etc. It sounds very much to me like your just trying to prove that I am the problem. So...are you trying to encourage me to stay....or subtle indicate you'd just as soon I left?

Merlion I just wanted to give you some perpective. I felt you were rude but I believe you did not mean to be. I would not want to let the spell you put foward into my game but I respect you right to put whatever you want into your own game. These things happen, people get offended by people who did not mean to offend and people have different opinion about what is balanced. It is life you can either let it torment you or you can learn to live with it.

What I dont understand is, why didnt you say something to me? See thats what I dont get...if I did something to offend you, you should have said something instead of just deciding not to post on my threads. Or, if that was what you really wanted to do (or not do), you should have just kept doing it.

I did not respond to you because I like to post in threads in which I can contribute and I felt you would not change your rules basied on my feedback and thus I did not feel that I could be helpful and thus I did not post. If you do not find my comments helpful then I have no wish to force them on you. The way I look at it, it is not my job to change people (you or anyone else on these boards). Your remarks seemed in character with your remarks in other threads so I assumed that was your style and thus rather than make a scene or try and change you or let it bother me I just left it well enough alone.

Its the writer/critic dynamic.

Criticism is not always pleasent. I often find it very unpleasent. People take apart your work and judge it and that is never an easy thing to endure. But if I viewed people's criticism of my work as criticisms of me I would never be able to share my ideas.

And really, I have to wonder why you've gone to the trouble of all this linking etc. It sounds very much to me like your just trying to prove that I am the problem. So...are you trying to encourage me to stay....or subtle indicate you'd just as soon I left?

Because I wanted to tell you that sometimes things are only a problem if you let them be and show you that you sometimes engage in the same behavior that you are decrying. I am not out to get you. I do read your threads and have used some of your rules. I think you have good ideas and would miss you creativity if you left. I don't think you should care much if I or anyone else thinks or says your rules are broken, overpowered, or munchkin. If you like them then that is good enough. I would like to help if I can but I do not share the same perspective and sense of balance that you do so on many issues we will inevitably disagree. When that happens it is the idea and only the idea that I have a problem with not you.

Though I would understand if you choose to leave just as I understand why FrankTrollman left.

 

[barsoomcore]

Insulting what a person says and thinks, nine times out of ten is going to be just as rude, offensive and hurtful as hurting the person.

No. Nothing is in and of itself rude, offensive or hurtful. It is you, the listener, who applies that interpretation to it. YOU need to stop considering attacks on your ideas as the same as attacks on your person. Nobody else can do that for you, and as long as you hold the above-quoted opinion, you won't be able to.

My point is that unless and until you do so, your ability to intelligently debate ideas in order to determine the best one will be hampered. I believe your life will improve if you decide to change your mind about this.

I don't care if I offend you, Merlion. I honestly don't -- because I have NO WAY OF KNOWING what will or won't offend you. If you decide to get offended (and getting offended is always the result of a conscious decision) then that's your perogative. I make every effort to follow the rules of conduct as posted for these boards -- and I accept the moderator's intervention when I fail to do so.

Pax did NOT violate the rules of conduct and so the moderators were simply not obliged to intervene. Whether or not you decided to be offended doesn't enter into the equation. Their job is not to protect your feelings -- it's to enforce the rules of conduct.

Two more quick points.

One: Here's a basic truth of life: If you meet a new moron/jerk/loser every week, it's you.

Two: If it hurts when you do something, stop. If you don't have any reasons to post here, don't.