removing class & cross-class skills - convince me why this is a bad idea

I like this discussion.

I'm in favor of no cross-class skills.

Our game isn't even really using skill points. Instead, we're using a series of three feats to represent the degree of training and/or practice a character has had in a particular skill. The feats refer to a homebrewed chart that shows the equivalent number of skill points a character of a given level has based on the feat(s) placed in that skill. It scales by level with good, fair, poor, and untrained columns. Characters can spend feats to learn new skills.

It's not as granular as the default skill system, but the lack of granularity translates into easier character records management for our group and helps assure a more accurate value for a large number of skills from character to character without checking math, too much.

It's working well for us. It's similar to one of the variants in UA.

I'm definitely in favor of no cross-class skills.
 

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I'm in favor of removing cross-class skills with one or two exceptions; Spellcraft and Use Magic Device should be, IMO, limited to classes with some sort of magical ability. (The same would apply to Psicraft and Use Psionic Device, if I used Psionics much.)
 

In my current game, I kept cross class skills but removed the doubled cost for them. I also added another skill point to every class. Next game, I think I'll just drop class/cross-class altogether. The only thing it really affects (in terms of game balance) is when PrCs become available, and maybe some of the skill trick stuff in complete scoundrel.
 

Well, the one possible issue is with Prestige Classes that forces you to multiclass before entering if you want to enter ASAP thanks to a skill prereq. The way around this would be to keep the cross-class skill rank cap, but you can buy cross-class skill ranks at a 1:1 ratio. In other words, just give everyone the Able Learner feat.
 

Zelc said:
Well, the one possible issue is with Prestige Classes that forces you to multiclass before entering if you want to enter ASAP thanks to a skill prereq. The way around this would be to keep the cross-class skill rank cap, but you can buy cross-class skill ranks at a 1:1 ratio. In other words, just give everyone the Able Learner feat.

That's the crux of it for me.
 

In my game, I have all skills cost 1 for 1, and cross-class skills cap at your level. This lets anyone be skilled at anything, but lets playing to type benefit you by the equivalent of a feat, (+3 to a skill).
 

Zelc said:
Well, the one possible issue is with Prestige Classes that forces you to multiclass before entering if you want to enter ASAP thanks to a skill prereq. The way around this would be to keep the cross-class skill rank cap, but you can buy cross-class skill ranks at a 1:1 ratio. In other words, just give everyone the Able Learner feat.

Not a bad idea, although I usually limit the PrC's I allow. I encourage players to customize the core classes instead of grabbing a PrC if possible.

But yeah, your idea is a good one. I'm going to explore this a bit more.
 

I personally think that cross-class skills actually help prevent cookie cutter characters, rather than the reverse. It's somewhat counterintuitive, but the problem is that if every class could access every skill, there are some that no one would pass up. In particular, Bluff )or Diplomacy) and Tumble it would be hard to justify not getting. The same with Search, Spot and Listen. By this time, most classes have filled thier quote. Protecting classes helps protect the classes role in the game. If we didn't want that, we'd just get rid of classes.

Given the pervasiveness of PrC's in the game, and the ability to cross-class, it's hard to claim that any given skill is really unavailable over the long term.

But I have used a somewhat more elegant solution than that. Each player is allowed to choose one starting advantage (or more if they take disadvantages). One potential advantage is 'unusual background', which permenently adds three cross-class skills to that classes class skills. For example, you might start as a fighter with the unusual background, 'Martial Artist', and add Tumble, Balance, and Concentration to your class skills whenever you took a level of fighter. Or you might play a wizard with the unusual background, 'Gutter Mage', and add Bluff, Sleight of Hand, and Move Silently to your Wizard class skills. Player's are encouraged to think up interesting backgrounds. You can also spend your starting feat on an advantage, which works particularly well with humans.

See, no problem that a little creativity doesn't fix. The main thing is that you don't give the player something for nothing. In taking an 'unusual background', he's giving up some other sort of advantage. This encourages you to take skills for RP reasons, not (just) because you are just trying to min-max. And truly good skills, like 'Empathy', 'Dreaming', 'Tactics', 'Use Magic Device', 'Planeswalking' and so forth stay the purvey of thier class.
 

Celebrim said:
I personally think that cross-class skills actually help prevent cookie cutter characters, rather than the reverse.

You could argue (and I would) that you are basically trading one set of cookie-cutter characters for another. As it stands now, the fighter takes Jump and Climb, the cleric, Concentration and Knowledge (religion), and the Wizard Spellcraft and Knowledge (arcana).

I'd rather have a system that's cookie-cutter but at least lets the players choose.

That said, I actually don't think removing cross-class skills would create cookie-cutter characters, quite the contrary. This system opens up the possibility for sneaky wizards, acrobatic fighters, and athletic clerics - all huge pluses in my book.

Given the pervasiveness of PrC's in the game, and the ability to cross-class, it's hard to claim that any given skill is really unavailable over the long term.

I agree that's a concern but they are really only pervasive as the DM allows. In my campaigns, I prefer players to customize their characters on the core class level (by swapping abilities, multiclassing, racial levels, etc) rather than through prestige classes.

I also tend to only use PrC's that are "generic" or those that support multiclass combos that are difficult to execute using the core classes. In any event, removing cross-class skills would certainly require me to take another look at the PrC's I allow to check for any loopholes.

But I have used a somewhat more elegant solution than that. Each player is allowed to choose one starting advantage (or more if they take disadvantages).

That's a solution but I'm not sure I would label it "elegant". It's certainly no more elegant than removing cross-class skills and probably accomplishes the same thing. Just seems like more stuff to deal with at character creation.
 

We don't really play class at all in the game I run.

Instead we use real world professions from the time period of the milieu. That's because in real terms the in-game designations for class don't really stand for classes at all, they stand for professions.

A class is really a rank in society, and since most D&D settings vaguely or directly reflect Medieval or proto-Medieval societies then classes are really a form of ranking in society (nobility, merchant, peasant, etc.), and usually a feudal type of ranking. Let's face it, if most players were of nobility or of a high class, then they would probably not be following a career as an adventure or explorer (unless they were not born early in family line) but would rather be pursuing a career in politics, administration, the clergy, or soldiering. Meaning that in reality most all characters are of middle to low class in their world, and so class is not really a consideration in actual fact, profession is.

Thus, so-called in-game classes are really not class at all, but professions. And usually very standardized and extremely general professions; fighter, wizard, cleric, and so forth, though with some very specific professional designations, such as Paladin or Ranger or Bard. Then again you have the proto-professions which are not really professions per se, but rather cultural types, such as the Barbarian or Monk. So the Barbarian is neither a class nor a profession, but a type.

So instead I let my players choose some profession, let's say, given our milieu, a Byzantine Solider, or a Mendicant Cleric. Then we use a system very similar to that employed by the US army as far as skill sets are concerned.

Most Soldiers will undergo basic training where they all receive a basic or preliminary instruction in a basic set of skills related to soldiering. Thereafter follows technical training, then professional training, and expertise.

So each player is allowed to choose a basic skill set for the character they create which relates to basic profession, say the Fighter. Fighter is just a general profession "type." From that point they may then pursue more advanced occupations which would lead them to becoming a professional soldier, a paladin, a ranger, etc. If a profession is really a subset of a progression form a more general profession, like from Fighter to Paladin, then the Paladin itself has a general set of professional skills, or so does a more advanced and better trained Soldier. Because not all Soldiers are alike, some are close combat fighters, some artillery-men, some tacticians, some infiltrators and scouts, some reconnaissance specialists, some mounted, some foot, some bowmen, etc. So although each profession and sub-profession has basic "skill sets" each individual is also free to pursue almost any skills that interest them personally.

So a cleric might want to learn systematic theology, and medicine, but he might also want to learn herbology, and animal husbandry (as was fairly common with some orders of Medieval monk), and he might also want to learn to box and wrestle. So each profession undergoes a basic skill set of basic training, but thereafter each individual may diverge in both his more advanced training, and in the course of pursuing his particular personal interests.

The class system serves only as a basic guide to adventuring profession "types." Thereafter players are allowed to design their characters pretty much as they desire and would be the real world case for the milieu in which they operate.

So we have a Byzantine solider from Nicea, a Paladin from the court of Charlemagne, a Bard from the British Isles, a Barbarian from Russia, a Roman Catholic Cleric from Ravenna, etc. Each is recognized by their cultural and professional backgrounds and basic training, but thereafter, as they have progressed each character has been allowed to pursue both more advanced professional training and personal interests. And often the players choose personal interests skills for their characters that fit their interests in real life, and/or skills and capabilities which allow each member of the party to specialize in some area of knowledge, expertise, or ability which is outside their normal skill set range, so the party as a whole can either overlap capabilities for mutual advantage, or develop capabilities to accommodate or compensate for normal professional deficits.

We also do not limit skill acquisition or development to already existing in-game skills. If players have some real world skill which they want translated into the game, and it is feasible for the milieu, then we create a skill to match player capabilities and interests. In that way the game reflects real life for the players and vice versa: the game becomes skills practice or exercise for real life skills (depending of course upon how individual adventures and scenarios are written and executed).

Then again we also have a special profession, the Vadder, who is more like a Renaissance adventurer, or Jack-of-All-Trades. This character does not choose a profession (the Vadder is not a real profession per se, but is rather an "adventuring type") but a certain skill set (or sets) which is almost immediately open to wide variation and the point is to develop a character who is extremely unique in nature and also able to do a little bit of everything, because the Vadder usually operates alone, as an independent agent, and therefore must possess a wide range of skills and capabilities, from survival to escape and evasion to manhunting and tracking to some combat to first aid and infiltration, etc.

That's the way we do it in my game.
 

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