Removing Divine magic?

[Aus_Snow]

. . .
Anyone left arcane magic as it is, and removed divine magic?
. . .

No. . . . but I was already considering doing so for a maybe-not-too-distant underwater campaign. Quite coincidental.

Though to be honest, arcane magic might not be exactly "as it is" by the time I get around to running the campaign.

Interesting thread!

 

[S'mon]

I'm considering putting all of the spells into one big pile and just letting casters choose whatever (maybe pull out a few for flavor purposes -- the Divination spell, the Commune spell, etc.). I think it might solve the "I don't want to be the cleric" problem I see frequently.

I think this works fine eliminating Cleric & Druid and using the Sorcerer as the only spellcasting class; and the Wizard too if you make it harder for them to get new spells - eg I charge scribing costs for the 2 level-up spells. Some Clr/Dr spells may need their level altered - Entangle is very powerful at 1st level - but in general this will not unbalance things. Giving Wiz & Sorc healing spells I've done, it creates no balance problems.

 

[S'mon]

The Midnight Channeler class is overpowered IME, their ability to cast Druid & Wiz/Sor spells from a points pool combined with easy multiclassing causes them to rapidly dominate game in a way a d4 single-class Sorcerer wouldn't.

 

[DarrenGMiller]

The Midnight Channeler class is overpowered IME, their ability to cast Druid & Wiz/Sor spells from a points pool combined with easy multiclassing causes them to rapidly dominate game in a way a d4 single-class Sorcerer wouldn't.

The only Channeler in our campaign died VERY VERY quickly. He was effective until then however.

I like mana-based (spell point) systems, but have yet to find one that maintains game balance.

DM

 

[Ibram]

This works, but it takes a bit of restructuring to do and be fair.

True, Im still trying to find the right balance for the spheres
You can't just open up the magic system as it is now -- why be a wizard when you can be a cleric with fireball, d8 hp, a good BAB, and armor? [/QUOTE]

On the flavor side you are then beholden to the gods of fire, powerful elemental spirits who care little for the world of mortals.

Rules wise... Wizards have more spell slots then mystics, and access to bonus caster feats. In addition Mystics do not gain proficiency with medium or heavy armor. They also only get one domain at first level (and a second domain at 10th), this restricts access to many spells (a mystic specalizing in fire magic sacrifices healing capabilities as well as most non-destructive spells)

You could force everyone to be a wizard, but I'd think you wouldn't see much use of buffs or divinations. People would focus on explosive spells (assuming combat as the main campaign activity) and have a handful of cures for when they're needed.

On the flavor side... explosive spells attract attention, which is something casters learn to avoid very early (He set them on fire with his mind! HES A DAEMON!!!)

Rules wise... explosive spells arent that common IMC (fireball is replaced by the 4th level spell Pyric Blast, smaller radius but does lingering damage). There are also quite a few good non-explosive spells that a character loses access to by focusing on fire magic, which has the most damaging spells outside Dark Magic. For example Invisability is gone, replaced by Pass Unseen which is a High Magic [Mesmerism] spell a spell that no elementalist is likely to ever get.

Its all a matter of choices, you can chose to have your character deal lots of magical damage... but if you go to far you lose out in other areas (like sneaking around). You can chose to be careful, ploting out each step, or wild... calling down the firey wrath of ancient gods.

By the rules now, the reason that clerics don't get the largest boom spells is because they have other features that make them talented in combat, and can add (mostly) defensive magic. This adds strategy and versaltility to combat.

Which is still there under the modified version of my system, I've tried hard to make sure that my casters dont get stuck in a particular role.

 

[Pip-Boy 2000]

Actually, I have done just the opposite, at least in my d20 Modern campaigns: removed arcane magic completely, allowing only divine magic. This is in keeping with your typical "Demon Hunting" type of campaign, which includes Holy Knights, Shadow Slayers, etcetera. It could also be a good way to run a "Demons and Angels" type of campaign.

It seems to me, though, that removing divine magic from D&D would be quite difficult, since so many NPCs and monsters and items use or have access to divine magic. It'd be possible to work around it, though, and I don't think it would upset game balance.

 

[SWBaxter]

Anyone left arcane magic as it is, and removed divine magic?

(snip)

I think it would solve a lot of the common complaints I hear from people - about healing being too common, raising the dead being too common, clerics being too powerful, etc, etc. I think people are removing the wrong kind of magic from their game.

Anyone done this?

Like others, I'd go with the Arcana Unearthed/Evolved approach, since Monte's already done all the necessary work. Gods are at best remote, different magic traditions use the same basic spell list, healing is not exclusively the province of any caster, and the big effects like raising the dead are a lot less accessible. It's worked very well every time I've run it.

An approach I haven't had a chance to run yet but hope to someday is to use the Expert, Spellcaster, and Warrior from Unearthed Arcana as the only three classes. The spellcaster basically eliminates the split between divine and arcane magic since either type can take any spell, but there's still relatively easy access to healing so that approach might not work as well for your purposes.

 

[Altalazar]

Isn't removing all divine magic called "Dragonlance, the early years"?

I think one can get around not having a cleric with potions and other such things. Or by adjusting CR to take into account a lack of healing magic. I've had groups without clerics get along just fine...

To me, taking it out or mixing it in with wizard magic just doesn't feel like D&D to me anymore. Sort of like how Shadowrun just doesn't feel like Shadowrun without Deckers (see other thread...)

Which is fine for some - I have played plenty of other systems - but when it comes to playing D&D I want to play, well, D&D. And if that's what I want to play, then there are certain things that I think just have to be there or it loses it's D&D-ness for me. Cleric magic, as its own thing, is one of those things. I'm tempted to start another thread asking what people think are the "core" "flavors" that make D&D feel like D&D and not some other system.

 

[Pants]

But, in a world with clerical magic, there is no mystery. Of course there are gods, I have my spells, don't I!

Not really. Core D&D says you don't have to have a god to get the benefits of clerical magic. You just have to believe in something strong enough.

You think that really old tree is an embodiment of the lord of nature? Well start up a cult and after a while, hey you start being able to cast spells! That tree truly must be an embodiment of the lord of nature (or it's just a tree and you're a wacky loon with enough faith to make your own god ).

 

[der_kluge]

Not really. Core D&D says you don't have to have a god to get the benefits of clerical magic. You just have to believe in something strong enough.

You think that really old tree is an embodiment of the lord of nature? Well start up a cult and after a while, hey you start being able to cast spells! That tree truly must be an embodiment of the lord of nature (or it's just a tree and you're a wacky loon with enough faith to make your own god ).

Well, yea, but that's D&D talking, not common sense.

I mean, if you want to try to create medieval Europe with all of its mystery and superstitions, it's harder to do with divine magic.