Removing Divine magic?

[der_kluge]

To me, removing Clerics wouldn't make it "not D&D" - else Dragonlance wouldn't be D&D. IMC I do have Clerics, but they cast spontaneously & have limited spells known, this makes them less overpowering than the 3e default. Likewise giving wizards Healing doesn't make it 'not D&D' to me.

I think that removing all divine magic, in the sense of removing the Cleric, Druid etc classes & all their spells, creates major balance problems, but if you just eliminate the classes, fold all their healing & restoration type spells into the Wiz/Sorc list and eliminate the arcane/divine distinction, Sorcs & Wizzes get a bit more powerful but there's no real balance issue - few Wizards will take Cure Serious over Fireball, anyway.

That's one option, certainly, but I'd be interested in hearing about anyone who has removed divine magic - period. Lumping arcane and divine together doesn't solve the problem of diseases being cured or people coming back from the dead. I'm not interested in this from a balance/rules perspective as a I am from a story/flavor perspective.

 

[Azgulor]

I'd be interested to hear how the removal of divine magic affected campaigns as well. And not just from a mechanics-of-magic perspective but also from a "Do priests remain viable character types and religions still played an important role" perspective.

In my head, I can't see any reason why it wouldn't work.

So far, the best treatment I've seen is the Sovereign Stone magic system. It does not use an Arcane/Divine division of magic. However, it uses it's own magic system (which is a plus for me as I find the D&D magic system and spells incredibly boring). I'm trying to figure how the best way to handle non-Cleric priests. My choices thus far are Expert (DMG) and Cloistered Cleric (Unearthed Arcana), but I'm not sure either is really what I'm looking for.

Also, based on the FAQ, Malhavoc's upcoming Iron Lore appears to remove the Arcane/Divine separation as well since there is only one spell-casting class: the Arcanist.

 

[Altalazar]

To me, removing Clerics wouldn't make it "not D&D" - else Dragonlance wouldn't be D&D.

A good point, except that even Dragonlance had clerics - they were just in hiding, so to speak, or were secret. So it did have divine magic, it was just harder to get to (initially).

 

[S'mon]

Die_kluge - just remove the raise dead spells & cure disease if you don't want them in your world, or say cure disease (and raise dead?) only works vs _magical_ diseases - like in the Buffy TV show, where magic could be fought with magic but mundane death is permanent. Removing all divine spells makes D&D as such heavily imbalanced, but plenty of worlds don't have divine magic, eg Conan.

Non-Cleric priests - most priests IMC are Adepts (spellcasting), Experts (non-spellcasting), or possibly Fighters & other PC-class. Clerics exist but more as champions of their gods than as temple staff.

 

[der_kluge]

Die_kluge - just remove the raise dead spells & cure disease if you don't want them in your world, or say cure disease (and raise dead?) only works vs _magical_ diseases - like in the Buffy TV show, where magic could be fought with magic but mundane death is permanent. Removing all divine spells makes D&D as such heavily imbalanced, but plenty of worlds don't have divine magic, eg Conan.

Non-Cleric priests - most priests IMC are Adepts (spellcasting), Experts (non-spellcasting), or possibly Fighters & other PC-class. Clerics exist but more as champions of their gods than as temple staff.

Again, it's not a question of balance, or specific spells. It's about these people walking around in the world that get spells from the gods. Imagine what our world would be like if priests got spells that they could use to heal people. That fundamentally changes everything.

 

[S'mon]

You seem to be ignoring what I'm saying. I'll try bullet points.

1. You won't see many standard D&D worlds without divine magic because balance problems can make them unplayable.

2. There are plenty of non-D&D fantasy worlds without divine magic - eg Conan.

3. As others have said, divine magic doesn't mean that everyone knows The Truth About the Multiverse - eg IMC many things are unknown, unclear or disputed. One Wizard player started to freak out (OOC!) when he realised the things he thought were true about the nature of magic and the cosmos probably weren't at all...

 

[S'mon]

Again, it's not a question of balance, or specific spells. It's about these people walking around in the world that get spells from the gods. Imagine what our world would be like if priests got spells that they could use to heal people. That fundamentally changes everything.

But many people believe 100% that faith-healers do get divine healing power from their God, and that witch-doctors have magical healing powers. It doesn't 'fundamentally change everything'. Most OD&D Cleric spells came from the Bible!

 

[der_kluge]

You seem to be ignoring what I'm saying. I'll try bullet points.

1. You won't see many standard D&D worlds without divine magic because balance problems can make them unplayable.

Well, this is debatable. I think the reason most standard worlds have divine magic is because it's status quo.

2. There are plenty of non-D&D fantasy worlds without divine magic - eg Conan.

Do they keep arcane magic intact?

3. As others have said, divine magic doesn't mean that everyone knows The Truth About the Multiverse - eg IMC many things are unknown, unclear or disputed. One Wizard player started to freak out (OOC!) when he realised the things he thought were true about the nature of magic and the cosmos probably weren't at all...

But aren't those mutually exclusive? I mean, if divine magic exists, then don't gods exist? If it's uncertain whether gods exist in the world, who answers all those augury spells?

But many people believe 100% that faith-healers do get divine healing power from their God, and that witch-doctors have magical healing powers. It doesn't 'fundamentally change everything'. Most OD&D Cleric spells came from the Bible!

This may be, but I've yet to see a faith healer bring someone back from the dead, and you won't find any faith healers listed as saints, and none have verifiable miracles attributes to them. And yes, many clerical spells come from the bible. Jesus and/or Moses cast them. Jesus was an avatar. I guess Moses could be considered a prophet, but he wouldn't necessarily be a cleric.

 

[S'mon]

But aren't those mutually exclusive? I mean, if divine magic exists, then don't gods exist? If it's uncertain whether gods exist in the world, who answers all those augury spells?

Who indeed? It's a mystery!

Per the RAW you DO NOT NEED GODS TO HAVE "DIVINE" MAGIC. "Divine" in D&D is a purely arbitrary descriptor for the kind of magic used by half the spellcasting classes. You seem to be hung up on a defiinition of "divine magic" that includes the necessary existence of deities & foolproof knowledge of the supernatural. None of that is in the RAW description of divine magic.

 

[S'mon]

Well, this is debatable. I think the reason most standard worlds have divine magic is because it's status quo.

The game assumes availability of magic healing, restoration etc in its CR system and other areas. Eliminate divine spellcasters & you need to either make those spells available to arcane casters or change game assumptions re PC power, survivability etc.