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D&D 5E Removing feats as a universal class mechanic

DEFCON 1

Legend
Supporter
I've been thinking about the different character creation mechanics that have been offered to us thus far in all the Next playtest packets... and have found that perhaps the idea of Specialties and the use of feats for ALL classes in the game perhaps is no longer the right direction to go. The reason being... is that their existence (a set of combat abilities bundled together in a combat style package) is basically duplicating what WotC has been trying to put together for the Fighter. A "Fighting Style" which is something equivalent to the Schemes, Domains, and Traditions of the other three Core classes.

So what has resulted is an overlapping and duplication of stuff for the Fighter. A Specialty, that gives the Fighter a few combat abilities in a fluffy package... AND a Fighting Style or series of Maneuvers, which also give the Fighter a few combat abilities in a fluffy package. As a result... up until this past packet, you could be a Fighter with the Marksman fighting style, and the Sharpshooter specialty. Two packages trying to accomplish the exact same thing.

The reason this has occurred is because of WotC's continued work to make Feats a mechanic that ALL classes can use. However, I do have to wonder if perhaps this is no longer the way things should go? Should classes like Wizards or Clerics really need to fiddle around with Feats? Do they really need to use combat goodies that they couldn't already get via Spells? The Wizard I think we can easily say "absolutely"... as they onl Specialty and Feats in the current packet that are really geared for them are the Metamagic feats (which could easily get repackaged as some other chargen mechanic if they were to remain in the game). For Clerics? I guess I would ask why they would need special combat abilities over and above their spells? Aren't spells enough? And if not... (especially for the martial-minded Clerics of the Justice or War domains) then I might ask could they not be served by having spells that grant them increased combat ability, so that they wouldn't need to have feats on top of it?

Because here's what I see-- most of the Specialties already are mimicking the idea of Fighting Styles-- the Defender, Skirmisher, Reaper, Polearm Master, Ambusher, Swashbuckler, Sharpshooter etc. You basically are seeing the Fighter's equivalent to the Rogue's Scheme, the Cleric's Deity, and the Wizard's Tradition right there. Should not perhaps we go back to the idea that Feats (or Maneuvers or Exploits or whatever you want to call them) ARE the province of Fighters only? They are what the Fighter does that is individual and separate from the other classes? And anything else that are currently Feats but don't actually affect weapon combat-- like Purge Magic, or Herbalism, or Find Familiar, or Open Locks, or any of the Expert Feats that adjust the Skill die-- just put them somewhere else. Make them individual optional parts of the various classes that would use them, rather than under this giant umbrella called "Feats". That way we can finally stop having to have the fighter "double-dip" in Martial Feats *and* fighting maneuvers, and there can be just one pool of fightery stuff they can pull from.

***

Now that being said... I know people are going to ask about classes outside the Core Four and whether they should use Feats too. And to me... the answer is "Yes", to a point. To me... Feats should be to weapon-primary classes what Spells are to spell-primary classes and Expert abilities are to the skill-die primary classes-- the pool of "special stuff" they can do.

In my opinion... I would LOVE it if the acquisition of Feats (in terms of when you get them and the way they power up) ran alongside the acquisition of new Spell slots and the acquisition of new Expertise. New spell levels currently appear at 1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th, etc... and I think new Feats and new Expertise would follow the same pattern. That way... you could had a definite relative equivalency between a 1st level Feat, a 1st level Spell and 1st Level Expertise (with a balance between the more powerful but used less often er day Spells versus the "always-on" but not as bursty Feats and Expertises).

The advantages of this is that it allows for easier to comprehend multiclassing. A Fighter 5 / Wizard 5 would have the Feats and Spells applicable to that equal distribution. Or a Rogue 7 / Cleric 3 would have the Expertises of a 7th level rogue plus the Spells of a 3rd level cleric.

Also... you then could start giving the OTHER classes openings into these three bundles. So for instance... Druids are a spell-primary class, so their spell acquisition mimics the clerics and the wizards. Right now in the current packet... Rangers and Paladins have been given spells at 1st level (in a caster-secondary distribution). But if Feats became ONLY the province of the Fighter to start with... and there was a definite equivalency between Feats and Spells... then you could allow the Paladin and Ranger to CHOOSE which secondary pool of abilities they wanted to follow-- Spells or Feats (and thus get your "non-casting" paladin and ranger back). Or for the Ranger or Monk or Bard? Opt-in to the Expertise-secondary pool of abilities, for those PCs who are less martially-inclined and more skill-focused like the Rogue.

***

All in all... I really think these three mechanics-- the combat Feat, the Spell, and the expert Expertise-- should get sectioned off to the individual Core Four class that it's meant for. And any special abilities meant for those classes get turned into packets of mechanics FOR those classes, rather than turn them all into this giant morass of "stuff" that has become the current 3E/4E/DDN "Feat system". Because it has once again been shown to us that trying to cram too many disparate things into the umbrella title of "Feat"... just makes things way too unwiedly-- plus robs the Fighter of the one truly unique and individual mechanic that they probably should have.
 

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If I'm understanding you properly, I could totally get behind this.

Fighter: Specialty + Feats.
Rogue: Specialty + Skills.
Mage: Specialty + Spells.
Cleric: Specialty + Channeling [& Spells].
(I personally would remove spellcasting from Pallys and Rangers. If they pick up some minor spellcasting through a specialty, so be it.)
Paladin: Specialty + Feats + Channeling.
Ranger: Specialty + Feats + Skills.
Assassin: Specialty (if assassin itself is not a specialty) + Feats + Skills.
Warlord: Specialty (if warlord is not a specialty, itself) + Feats + Channeling (in the form of their "inspirational auras" or whatnot)

Druid: Specialty + Spells + Channeling (in the form of wildshape)
Warlock: Specialty + Channeling (in the form of eldritch powers)
Bard: Specialty + Spells + Skills + Feats

Barbarian...uhhh. Specialty + Feats, I guess?

But yeah. I can dig [not everyone gets feats] it.
--SD
 

If I'm understanding you properly, I could totally get behind this.

Fighter: Specialty + Feats.
Rogue: Specialty + Skills.
Mage: Specialty + Spells.
Cleric: Specialty + Channeling [& Spells].

If what you are meaning by 'Specialty' is the same as what I mean by Fighter Style, Rogue Scheme, Cleric Deity, Wizard Tradition (IE a particular fluffy build that describes what kind of Fighter/Rogue/Cleric/Wizard you are, plus gives some specific benefits for that build), then yes, absolutely.

There are many different ways to build a Fighter, so you should select a Specialty (or Style or whatever you want to call it) which would give you a feature or two... plus then you receive a Feat at 1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th etc. level from a list specific to that Specialty or Style. The exact same way a Rogue would select a Scheme (like Thug, Acrobat, Charlatan) and get a feature or two for it... plus then receive an Expertise (IE what we current are calling Expert feats, and each of which allows the Rogue to use his Skill Die for some special ability) at 1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th etc. level from a list specific to that Scheme. The exact same way a Cleric selects a Deity, gets a feature or two for it... and then receives several Spells (and higher level ones at 1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th etc. level). And just like the Wizard selects a Tradition, gets a feature or two from it, and then received Spells as well (plus higher level ones at 1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th etc.)

Then for the other classes... it follows the same kind of thing, except they tend to have more specific abilities at certain levels (IE 'class features') rather than more open lists I imagine. So the Barbarian has a more universal class feature list that applies to every Barbarian at each level, but then perhaps adds a smaller Feat list that they don't get as many of as the Fighter (so maybe at 2nd, 6th, 10th level etc.) The Paladin has three Oaths that give slight differences, but they all share mostly the same class features (like the Divine Sense and Mount etc.), and they all add a smaller Spell list that they don't get as many of as the Cleric/Wizard or they can select Feats from a small list that they don't get as many of as the Fighter. The Ranger has a Favored Enemy plus class features and then selects from a small Spell or Feat or Expertise list... the Druid has Wildshaping and a full suite of Spells like the Cleric/Wizard... the Monk has a main set feature list plus perhaps a couple options for Monastery features, along with a small Feat or Expertise list... the Bard maybe has a College to give him a couple unique features, but they mainly all share the same feature list, plus either has a smaller Spell or Expertise list.

So on and so forth.
 

If what you are meaning by 'Specialty' is the same as what I mean by Fighter Style, Rogue Scheme, Cleric Deity, Wizard Tradition (IE a particular fluffy build that describes what kind of Fighter/Rogue/Cleric/Wizard you are, plus gives some specific benefits for that build), then yes, absolutely.

Yup. That would make all kindsa sense. I would very much enjoy seeing this implemented.
 

Feats were essentially a form of customizations. Wizards and clerics already have a form of customization in their spell lists. Feasibly, a rogue's customization would be in his skill set (which has been the way of things since 2E, really).

I definately think that fighters should get the lion's share of feats. I wouldn't mind seeing other classes selection of feats be reduced - if they get any at all - to something they take at 1st level for a bit of customization or a "path". Could make an argument that since clerics divide their ability between spells and martial ability that they should get a few too, but I think that any and all martial portion would be better covered by domain-like abilities, combat spells or spell-like abilities.
 


I disagree. There are universal abilities that any class might want, and there should be a universal pool to pull from so they don't have to shoehorn slightly different class-abilities that do the same thing that a feats do. Wizards, Clerics, Druids, Paladins, Bards, Rangers, Sorcerers, and Warlocks might all want a Maximize Spell ability or an ability that improves initiative. There shouldn't be a different class ability option for each class they can choose. That is terrible redundancy. A single ability they can all chose from is the answer. And "feats" are the recognized terminology for that universal shared pool of character customization abilities.

What I don't understand is why some people have a problem with feats. Is it because those people don’t like the feat bloat and/or fiddly feats in 3rd and 4th edition? Is it that they feel homogenized because any player can take them to customize their character? Because they do not feel that way to me. They are one of the most defining customization options ever created, and they do the job very well. D&D Next Feats are proving to be less fiddly than previous editions, and are looking more like functional, concept-defining, and concept-supporting abilities. The designers are on the right path in my opinion.

Fighters able to access more feats is a good thing to me! A Ranger and a Fighter and a Rogue may all want to fight better with two weapons. It is bad design to create nearly identical abilities for each class so they can perform that. But I love that the fighter has his class abilities *and* feats that not only don’t overlap each other, they interact to give him an edge with that fighting style. A fighter has both the class options and the feat options to be a hands-down better sword and board combatant if he wants to. But the other classes can be decent at it too if they want by choosing a feat.

…in my opinion.
 
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DEFCON1, your system pretty much describes my ideal 4e: one without feats. I daresay you could get a lot of 4e folks on board with something like this, at least the ones concerned about intra-party balance (setting aside player-narrative issues). You could probably get some TSRe folks as well, with the strong class silos localizing and quickening chargen. But I suspect you'd lose some of the 3e folks who like the extreme customizability and "mundane" powers clearly accessible to anyone. I dunno, maybe they could be brought on board with multiclassing.

I think one thing that might be cool is a base, core system like this; classes siloed, roughly balanced, with option telescoping that allows you to play a "basic" character with most options pre-selected, or alternatively have a degree of customization, along the lines of 4e's powers and builds, for those who want it. Then, as an advanced module, you'd blow the classes up. No classes. All "feats" (in the 3e/4e sense of the term), and you pick and choose what you want for your character. Everything is selectable by everyone. Want an armored fighter who can cast spells? Go for it. Want a holy man with thief skills? It's yours.

Otherwise, it's just half-assed. Both a class system and a free chargen system have their advantages and disadvantages. But in the 3e/4e model, you get the worst of both worlds.
 

The "mechanic" of Feats is so simple, that it really would be a pity to remove it as a whole from the game, it's the ultimate game mechanic for character customization that every DM can use to design their own campaign-defining or setting-defining special abilities for PC and NPC.

OTOH it's true that WotC should really ask themselves what is the purpose of feats in the game, but with regard to what feats can do. What I mean is that the general purpose of the feats system as a whole is character customization, that's pretty much clear. But what needs to be re-thought carefully is the specific purpose of the feats available in the game.

Personally I think the best feats are those who can potentially add something to all characters. Some examples in the current packets: Arcane Dabbler, Charming Presence, Combat Reflexes, Find Familiar, Healing Initiate, Herbalism, Improved Initiative, Iron Hide, Purge Magic, Skill Focus, Skill Supremacy, Superior Skill Training, Toughness, Track, Trap Sense and Use Magic Device.

It doesn't matter what class you are or whether you focus on melee, exploration or spellcasting, ANY of those feats above is going to be potentially useful! That's my favourite type of feats, not those which apply only to some classes!

But currently feats have a broaded but also less clear purpose, because they include combat feats which make you better at melee or ranged combat. What if instead we eliminated all combat feats? What if every feat that opens up an option is turned into just that: an option, an additional type of action in the "combat actions" list (obviously not in the Basic game)? This way everyone already can push, charge, fight with two weapons, shield bash etc, do we really need feats to allow an action that isn't better than doing a regular attack?

Then there are also combat feats that indeed make your attack better (or something more specific than an attack). But why can't those be Fighter Maneuvers only? The more combat boosts we allow to all classes, the more we go back into 3e troubles with the Fighter class having less to offer, so why not having a game where only the Fighter can get Maneuvers that actually boost?

Then for a gaming group which likes every PC to dabble into this, all that's needed is one feat that reads "You gain one Fighter Maneuver of your choice".

This could then be generalized into a small list of "multiclassing feats", another one could grant you a Rogue's Skill Trick, another a single Wizard's Spell and so on... This allows for 4e-style multiclassing but it is so easily under the DM's control because if all this is not wanted, the DM only needs to "ban" a tiny bunch of feats instead of going through a list of hundreds. This "multiclassing feats" list can also be labelled "optional" in the book, to make it more clear.

Then all that would be left as pure feats, are add-ons ability that can potentially affect any character no matter the class, which would be neat IMHO, as long as we bravely drop another issues with feats that we take for granted only out of habit: restrictions. Why do we really need restrictions? Why do we really need to require spellcasting in order to take Find Familiar, what would be so terrible in allowing a Fighter or Rogue to have a familiar? How about the Stark in Game of Thrones that have dire wolves familiars without being wizards, aren't they cool? Are they more broken than a regular wizard with the same familiar?
 


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