Removing MAD

[Nymrohd]

I almost want to call my problem SAD, specific ability dependence... ie if you could create a more effective smart fighter for instance in other words finding reasons to make other attributes useful or efficient within various classes this is sort of the other end is it a different fix/problem?.... I see making two attributes the only ones you need for class efficiency possibly having the other impact... Ie everybody pumps.. them and they are known to be the only things you need for the class...

how about removing the hierarchy a little...all Powers have multiple attributes - one for reliability and one for potency and possibly a third for area of Narrowing what it takes to make a class work seem to mean we will get more look a likes in the classes not less.effect or a fourth for range or duration. Obviously there is a horror story of complexity building up in there.

We could do something like how the trinity of Defensive Pairings goes
Reflex / Will / Fortitude.

In other words most of the time your attack with this power is based on the higher of the two, but when you are forced out of your comfort zone... you use the lesser of the two attributes.

A character who is designed adaptively will be far less burdened by combat advantage or some other condition which inhibits the ability she normally uses for this attack or defense.

Removing abilities from attack stats accomplices that far better.

 

[Garthanos]

Actually... that's probably not a bad idea to just declare potential stats. So then you can have a paladin who uses either Str or Cha to attack, whichever they prefer. Or a warlock with Con or Cha.

Hmm, some issues with that, too.
.

In some cases it just lacks, sense ... with the defenses, you can use some sort of 'logistics' to decide that Int allows you to predict your adversaries action and allow advanced planning to speed your response or you can use native physical response time...and int and dex are both are wrapped up in your nervous system. So reflex defense based on "either" could make sense.

IF you take the diverse Str and Cha pair the maneuver has changed to such a different thing it makes little sense for it to be under the name "power x", though the same game effect could have a version which is done using strength and another done using cha.

 

[keterys]

Not on a power basis - some paladins are strong and schooled in swinging their weapons about with great strength. Others are guided by their communion with the divine.

But, yeah, I keep hitting a point in each of these discussions where I'm happy with my decision to remove attack stats entirely.

 

[Garthanos]

Removing abilities from attack stats accomplices that far better.

hey remove defense too and use a level based damage reduction while we are at it!
Sorry, I think it just diverges too far for my tastes. I am more comfortable with adding more reasons for the secondaries and tertiaries to be used than deleting such a major element.

 

[Nymrohd]

hey remove defense too and use a level based damage reduction while we are at it!
Sorry, I think it just diverges too far for my tastes. I am more comfortable with adding more reasons for the secondaries and tertiaries to be used than deleting such a major element.

True, and I agree, this is entirely a matter of taste. I very much don't like my character to be dependent on his abilities and feel he has to stack all his bonuses on just two abilities, mainly because I feel that does not represent my character well; I want him to feel more well-rounded. So I am all for making ability scores less important in general and moving to a level based system. I still think MAD is not an issue for anyone but the Str paladin. I find it reasonable for some classes not to be able to use every ability equally well and I think the problem will feel even less significant once Arcane and Divine power are out.

 

[Garthanos]

True, and I agree, this is entirely a matter of taste. I very much don't like my character to be dependent on his abilities and feel he has to stack all his bonuses on just two abilities, mainly because I feel that does not represent my character well; I want him to feel more well-rounded.

Well I agree almost entirely with the above but... I would change it to.
"I very much don't like to feel he has to stack all his bonuses on just two abilities, mainly because I feel that does not represent my character well;"

I think there should be ways within the broad archetypes to allow my character to accomplish the prominant goals of that class without focusing so narrowly, and think MAD (evenly applied) would be better than SAD.

So I am all for making ability scores less important in general and moving to a level based system. I still think MAD is not an issue for anyone but the Str paladin. I find it reasonable for some classes not to be able to use every ability equally well and I think the problem will feel even less significant once Arcane and Divine power are out.

 

[Nymrohd]

For me, the ideal would be for power choices to be roughly equal, and feats and ability score allocation to play an important part of play style but a minor part of character power. Unfortunately, the current system focuses heavily on abilities, and judging from weapon expertise, and the new PHB2 NAD feats, also suggests some feats heavily as well.

 

[Sadrik]

hey remove defense too and use a level based damage reduction while we are at it!
Sorry, I think it just diverges too far for my tastes. I am more comfortable with adding more reasons for the secondaries and tertiaries to be used than deleting such a major element.

Really now, this is simply a pairing down of needed stats for classes to open up more options for them so they are not so one-dimensional during character creation. What choices do you really have? Lets see... place my 16 or 18 in my primary and place my 14 or 16 in my secondary add racial mods and - done.

It might make the most sense to base everything off of their primary stat alone, in this case you are more free to make a smart rogue or a charismatic rogue or a strong rogue or whatever. Hm, this actually makes the most sense to me. It hearkens back to previous editions.

True, and I agree, this is entirely a matter of taste. I very much don't like my character to be dependent on his abilities and feel he has to stack all his bonuses on just two abilities, mainly because I feel that does not represent my character well; I want him to feel more well-rounded. So I am all for making ability scores less important in general and moving to a level based system. I still think MAD is not an issue for anyone but the Str paladin. I find it reasonable for some classes not to be able to use every ability equally well and I think the problem will feel even less significant once Arcane and Divine power are out.

So I guess there are two schools of thought here.
1) Make more abilities important for every class so they limit their overall options to those in which they have a good stat in.
2) Make a single ability (or two) important and base all of the classes features off of that. Opening up every option equally without a - this power is sub-par for you because you dont have X stat high enough to make it effective.

But, yeah, I keep hitting a point in each of these discussions where I'm happy with my decision to remove attack stats entirely.

Does this throw out the baby with the bath water though? Everyone will still have a high stat in their you might as well make the attack bonus based on that too. Giving everyone a normalized to hit chance will diminish the prime stat in favor of the secondary one. This will lower overall damage and could cause the secondary stat to bloat above the primary. I am unsure about this. However I do like it conceptually.

To add to your idea though:
Rather than give it based off of a normalized stat give it based off the HP they gain. So a wizard gets a Combat score of 4 rogue 5 and fighter 6. I don't know something to think about.

Aside: Sadrik, you've been throwing up a lot of potential ability score ideas, but I think it's pretty unclear what you're actually trying to achieve overall. It might be a good idea to explicitly list _just_ the things that bother you in a post (ex: people ignore one of the two stats in a pair, there are no smart rogues, dextrous wizards, etc), without actually posting any suggested fixes at all as part of that. Get a lot more open brainstorming on the problem.

I prefer to actually like to have ideas to back up my gripes so I don't come off as nonsensically griping and others saying their is no gripe. I usually explicitly explain the issue in my posts and I do want feedback on my ideas as well as myself giving feedback on others ideas about the highlighted issue being tackled.

 

[Garthanos]

It might make the most sense to base everything off of their primary stat alone, in this case you are more free to make a smart rogue or a charismatic rogue or a strong rogue or whatever.

Ah but I want the mechanics to acknowledge and promote appropriately that Roguish activities are enhanced in one way because he is a smart rogue another way because he is a charismatic rogue and still perhaps another because he is a strong rogue...also I think they will be using different combat moves because of them which is not something earlier editions did.

 

[Sadrik]

Ah but I want the mechanics to acknowledge and promote appropriately that Roguish activities are enhanced in one way because he is a smart rogue another way because he is a charismatic rogue and still perhaps another because he is a strong rogue...also I think they will be using different combat moves because of them which is not something earlier editions did.

You still are limiting power selection through initial stat placement. By saying this rogue with high stat X is good with these powers and poor with these because low stat Y you are effectively limiting powers. To make this work they will need a fairly staggering array of balanced powers lined up for each stat with each class. I think this is not the best way to go - not enough paper, too many classes and too many balance issues.

I think keying powers off the single stat and removing secondary stats is the best way to achieve maximum options and options are good. Again, limiting powers by stats is not the way to go.