Removing Racial HD

[CAFargo]

My players have recently begun wondering why races require racial HD, and don't want to have to take levels in humanoid just to play a cool race. Would it be fair to, for example, simply just have racial HD become LA +(HD/2) or something?

 

[Celebrim]

My players have recently begun wondering why races require racial HD...

To provide a balanced set of challenges over the course of a campaign where the power level may very from 'grim and gritty' to 'fantasy superheroes'. Hense, some monsters default to being mighty combatants.

In theory, you could do a race like 'Frost Giant' without racial HD, and have Frost Giant 1st level warriors with minimal modifications to the rules. (My rules would actually handle this fairly well if I ever wanted to try it). In this case, your 'average giant' would be a fairly high level character (for the purposes of providing challenges to high level characters) and you could play a 1st level Frost Giant fighter along say 6th level human comrades (assuming LA +5 here, but LA +4 if you don't use my size modifiers.)

However, if you did that, the problem you'd run into is that LA is a poor adjustment because power level in D&D tends to be exponential and LA is just a linear fudge factor. My suggestion is that if you wanted to play a 1st level Frost Giant fighter (with no racial HD) in a campaign starting at 6th level, they you also would have to take like a 30% penalty to earned XP because eventually you'd over come your limits as a 1st level character and the fact that you had a natural 29+ strength and were huge would dominate play. LA by itself tends not work for anything above LA +1 because of the fact that (for example) a 16th level LA +4 character tends to be much more powerful than a 20th level LA +0 character for every case but spellcaster (and sometimes even then).

, and don't want to have to take levels in humanoid just to play a cool race.

What??? Humans aren't cool enough for you? What are you, some sort of racist?

Would it be fair to, for example, simply just have racial HD become LA +(HD/2) or something?

No, not really.

 

[Sylrae]

The fact is, LA + HD is a very very poorly designed system to allow a monster as a character.

I'll give you two better methods.

1. CR = Level. The player has to start at full HD. Essentially, they get (CR) Levels in whatever it is, and the HD just dont match up to CR.

2. Break the whole monster down into something like a player class, which the player can freely multiclass into, along with a 'lesser' LA 0 version.

*Something to keep in mind: Some of the biggest issues to having monster players are:

Immunities: Most immunities can be dropped. Obviously the fire elemental gets immunity to fire (I say Fire should HEAL it). The Fire Giant, however should not get fire immunity. Fire Resistance, at a high number (like 40) should be enough. Elves shouldnt get sleep immunity, they should get a bonus on saves vs. sleep magic(I give them a +10).
At-Will Abilities: At-Will is fine for most non-combat abilities. But for things usable in combat, you need to limit them. Usually 5/day is fine, but you may want to go 3+CHA/day, or 3+CON/day, or 3+WILL/day, which works out to roughly the same power level. If it needs more, you could up it to 5+score.
Energy Drain: Draining Levels was never a good Idea. its a huge amount of bookkeeping, and its no fun. Replace it with ability score drain, with a decently high value, and usually it's more fair + keeps flavor.
SR: SR is like AC for spells, which goes on TOP of the save. you can knock down the SR a few pegs, or convert it into a dwarf like ability, with a + on saves vs. magic.
DR: Damage reduction is fine, but you dont want large amounts on low level creatures. keep level*1.5 as your max (you can round up) and it's usually pretty workable.

 

[Celebrim]

1. CR = Level.

Doesn't work. The reason is that a monsters CR is usually only judged according to the threat it represents to the PC's of a given level, not by its ability to overcome other challenges or threaten other monsters. At-will abilities, flight, immunities, defences, etc. mean much less within the framework of an encounter than they do with the campaign as a whole when the PC will be able to use them again and again and again.

Plus, speaking as a DM, monsters of a given CR are often much more powerful than characters of a given level. There are alot of ways to break the CR system, and generally the weakest challenges of a give CR you can provide are humanoid NPC's - which are often a CR or two under their level for exact the opposite reason as above. Plus, CR is often off by a point or two. Keeping CR exactly balanced isn't something WotC spends alot of time on (for that matter, they don't spend alot of time on LA numbers either).

Break the whole monster down into something like a player class, which the player can freely multiclass into, along with a 'lesser' LA 0 version.

Savage Species tried this. Essentially, you port in all the problems of the HD + LA system, except that you allow the character to be played from level 1. The results aren't always satisfying.

In my opinion, the cool races are your basic LA +0 races. Anything else is probably someone trying to break the system.

 

[Steinhauser]

I'm a fan of playable monster races, and as such I'm always looking for ways to solve the obvious problems involved.

Savage Species had a good idea, although a lot of the book seemed to assume a whole party of monsters, rather than monster + a few humanoids. If everyone has access to unique powers and great scores, it can't really be considered game-breaking.

One fix I saw used a Savage Species style "racial class" level progression but limited the magic items the monsters got or could use, while letting the lowly races collect them as normal. Mosters got at-wills and better ability scores, while the regular LA+0s got to pump their game to the same level using items. The hard part is justifying to the player why his character can't have the same magic items the others get, and usually those kinds of players will make the biggest stink about it. I never tried this one, but it looked good on paper.

And more recently I read about someone who was raising the core races to LA+1 (with new abilities) to allow some of the lower LA monsters to fit in more easily.

I usually default to only allowing the character to play a "juvenile" of the race, which I design. (I'll admit I've only done this once and had the player still go through with it.) Large and larger monsters are reduced to Medium, ability score adjustments are LA+0 or LA+1 friendly, and special abilities are "not fully developed," changing from at will to 1/day or even 1/week. Flight changes to glide or levitate, natural weapons are scaled down. Racial HD are eliminated. And I don't let them grow into their adult forms by level - growing up takes time, not experience.

 

[Sylrae]

Doesn't work. The reason is that a monsters CR is usually only judged according to the threat it represents to the PC's of a given level, not by its ability to overcome other challenges or threaten other monsters. At-will abilities, flight, immunities, defences, etc. mean much less within the framework of an encounter than they do with the campaign as a whole when the PC will be able to use them again and again and again.

That is what the notes at the bottom of my post were about. A Monster's Cr is based on how challenging they think it will be for one fight, and so things you can use again and again aren't factored into it. Which is why I suggested changing them.With the changes I mentioned, this quick fix (it IS a quick fix) is better than LA+HD, as HD are far overvalued in this system.

Plus, speaking as a DM, monsters of a given CR are often much more powerful than characters of a given level. There are alot of ways to break the CR system, and generally the weakest challenges of a give CR you can provide are humanoid NPC's - which are often a CR or two under their level for exact the opposite reason as above. Plus, CR is often off by a point or two.

Sure, there are overpowered exceptions that are not the right CR, they're often off a bit. You can't fix that without reassigning the CRs as necessary.

Keeping CR exactly balanced isn't something WotC spends alot of time on (for that matter, they don't spend alot of time on LA numbers either).

Agreed. CR is a better indicator of power than LA though.

Savage Species tried this. Essentially, you port in all the problems of the HD + LA system, except that you allow the character to be played from level 1. The results aren't always satisfying.

Savage Species failed at this. They were supporting LA+HD, but were breaking that same system down by level. Savage Species Assumes LA+HD Works. I'm saying now that it doesn't. When LA+HD is functional it's a peculiarity, not the general case.

They also didn't do it the same way I'm suggesting. I'm suggesting something like the racial classes in Arcana Evolved/WoWRPG.
The Racial Classes should be balanced against the player classes, not just the same abilities as in the MM but spread out. Every level you should get:

HD
Skills
Standard Feat Progression at 1,3,6,9 etc (in PF 1,3,5,7,9 etc)
Standard Ability Score increases by level.

You shouldnt get many immunities: So trim them back.
You shouldn't get much in the way of *At Will*: Trim them back.
Energy Drain, High DR, Massive Consistent Damage Output: Trim them back

Ask yourself: Would this still be the same type of monster if I dropped this (does it need this ability)?
If No, Ask: Would this ability be reasonable if we reduced the number of times per day it gets used?

It's perfectly ok to maintain the concept and knock it down in CR, by pulling out unnecessary extras. Means you can get more class levels to compensate.

Keep in mind that, where a monster has all their abilities, if they would use them all up before end of combat, said monster, as an adventurer, would get into on average 4 combats per day like that. (Which may justify scaling uses up for some abilities). At Will abilities, could probably be scaled down, to how often they're used in one fight on average, x4. This would up the power for x/day uses, and keep the utility of the At-Will abilities around the same. Scale back to weaken the monster.

In my opinion, the cool races are your basic LA +0 races. Anything else is probably someone trying to break the system.

The most balanced races are the LA+0 Races. Generally the coolest + playable are the LA+1 Races. Genasi, Teifling, Aasimar, Half-Ogres, Half-Giants, and Goliaths are pretty awesome. It's hard to find LA+1 races that aren't really cool for players and still within the same basic power range.
That doesn't mean you're trying to break the system if you want something of a Higher LA for your character. Maybe you really just want to play that minotaur, or medusa, or lizardfolk, or vampire, or werewolf, or whatever. the fact that they were not well designed for players doesnt mean youre doing it to break the game. You're just trying to do something the game did a poor job covering.

Things like this are a common occurrence in our games, For Example. I have an Erinyes(0) Druid(3), she only has LA+0 worth of devil abilities, and 3 levels in druid. She's going to take a level in Erinyes to get access to flight at 4 or 5. She's perfectly balanced against the elf and the dwarf and the teifling. We also have a Minotaur(2) Fighter(1), who ended up being a bit broken and needs to be powered down a bit.

Were they trying to break the system? No. They were just wanting to play something interesting.
Does the game support it? To a point.
Am I going to shut them down for it? No. I find it also interesting.
Will it be a problem if they go to a different city, where the population/government isn't a bunch of scumbag pirates who use them so long as they're useful? Most Likely. They can expect to be attacked on sight in those places. Well, the minotaur can. The Erinyes can claim to be angelic or something. The Teifling needs to find armor to hide the spikes that come out of his joints (elbows, etc). The Elf will be fine unless they go somewhere where people are racist against elves.

The Monsters simply weren't designed to be playable, and so anything past a +1 requires quite a bit of effort to make reasonably playable. Unless you're invested in putting a decent chunk of effort into your monster characters and balancing them against other players, there's no perfect quick-fix. The monsters weren't designed for more than a single encounter. My best advice for you is the quick fix I mentioned. It won't be perfect, but if you add in the changes I suggested, and pull out the abilities I mentioned and tweak them, it should be ok most of the time. You might need to tweak a CR up or down a point to 2 points.

Is our group typical? Not from what I hear, but it's similar to every other group I've DMed, and similar to 95% of games I've PCed in. I have someone wanting to make a cleric who actually intends to be party healer support, and that's never happened before.
Here is what our games are like, which will explain why monstrous appearances are more accepted and why I've been opting to hit clerics with a NERF BAT.

DM Style
While Player actions have consequences, I'm not going to directly stop them from doing bad things. This includes PVP, Mass Slaughter, Murder, Poisoning the town, etc.
People will hunt them down, but I don't force them to be good, or to work together.
Unless I push them into situations where they do heroic things, they often have pvp conflict, and often become hunted fugitives if in goodly societies.

Player Style I think because I won't directly prohibit it, they do it, it happens with new groups as much as old. Players will rob eachother. They'll lie to eachother, cheat eachother out of their share of the profits, and occasionally even kill eachother. Nobody wants to play Party support. They all have their own goals. Clerics watch out for themselves, and they usually use their superior casting + combat to make themselves superfighters. Sometimes they support one or 2 others, but I've never had one intend to support the whole group until this game, in 10 years of DMing. I've dropped Cure Light Wounds potions down to 25g a piece. The Evil tends to die down a bit after the first campaign with a set of players when the novelty of not being directly prohibited wears off. Then you have the same thing, but to a smaller extent.

I'm a fan of playable monster races, and as such I'm always looking for ways to solve the obvious problems involved.

Good Good!

Savage Species had a good idea, although a lot of the book seemed to assume a whole party of monsters, rather than monster + a few humanoids. If everyone has access to unique powers and great scores, it can't really be considered game-breaking.

HD+LA (And Savage Species) works out ok as long as everyone is using the same base HD and same LA.

One fix I saw used a Savage Species style "racial class" level progression but limited the magic items the monsters got or could use, while letting the lowly races collect them as normal. Mosters got at-wills and better ability scores, while the regular LA+0s got to pump their game to the same level using items. The hard part is justifying to the player why his character can't have the same magic items the others get, and usually those kinds of players will make the biggest stink about it. I never tried this one, but it looked good on paper.

Works as a balancer, but it makes no sense In-Game. For that matter, why can't the Monster steal the item from the players and use it themselves. IMO Not a Good Fix.

And more recently I read about someone who was raising the core races to LA+1 (with new abilities) to allow some of the lower LA monsters to fit in more easily.

Pathfinder Did This.

I usually default to only allowing the character to play a "juvenile" of the race, which I design. (I'll admit I've only done this once and had the player still go through with it.) Large and larger monsters are reduced to Medium, ability score adjustments are LA+0 or LA+1 friendly, and special abilities are "not fully developed," changing from at will to 1/day or even 1/week. Flight changes to glide or levitate, natural weapons are scaled down. Racial HD are eliminated. And I don't let them grow into their adult forms by level - growing up takes time, not experience.

Sounds like you hit them with a nerf-stick so hard they're pathetic, and then remove the opportunity to advance them, which will often make you worse than equivalent LA+0 PCs. I'd probably never take these. It would entirely depend on the 'juvenile' version that you designed.

 

[Runestar]

HD+LA would work, if wotc didn't artificially inflate LA just to discourage players from playing weird races. As it stands, many monsters have ECLs much higher than what their power level suggests (either that, or wotc was comparing them with really subpar PCs, or they really overestimated the worth of their special abilities).

So I think that the 1st step would be to revalue the individual LAs. For instance, I think that for all the giants, their LA can be effectively zero (ie: ECL = racial HD). Or does that still make them too weak?

In this case, the exception would be fairly weak monsters with so much racial HD that their ECL would actually be lower than their amount of HD.

As for templates, I also support a savage progression so players can slowly take them over several lvs and stagger them with class lvs, rather than sucking the entire chunk of LA at one go.

 

[ValhallaGH]

My players have recently begun wondering why races require racial HD, and don't want to have to take levels in humanoid just to play a cool race.

Do what 4E did: monstrous PCs work differently than monstrous NPCs.

Monster NPCs work as they appear in the monster manuals. Monster PCs have a different set of abilities, one that has fewer immunities, lighter defenses, smaller bonuses, and generally is much more balanced with the other PC race options; making it balanced and playable while still being different.
That's the gamist explanation.

Fluff-wise: if they were a normal member of their species then they wouldn't become an adventurer. They'd follow the "I'm a monster" development and pick up all the normal power and all the normal hit dice, and get killed by adventurers like normal.
They aren't normal, which is why they have that heroic spark. They may lack some common racial ability, or they may have a muted version of it; they may even have several deficiencies. It's because of these deficiencies that, like humans, they have learned how to use the abilities and skills of adventurers, adapting to their existence in a way that allows them to really impress.
The same level of impressiveness that any high level PC has.


Good luck.

 

[Sylrae]

Do what 4E did: monstrous PCs work differently than monstrous NPCs.

You could do this. I found the concept horrific. By the time they whittle them down, youre not even playing the same creature.
I think this is a poor solution. Mechanically it works.
Flavor-wise, if you strip the monster to those few abilities, that it becomes an LA+0 Race, and doesnt gain monster abilities, then its effectively no longer the same creature. Either its something else entirely, or the Monster in the Monster manual should be using the set of abilities you have as a base, and advance with player classes or something.
As I said. mechanically it works. It's a "Solution" that I couldn't stomach, and was in fact the very first thing that stopped me from liking 4e.

Spoiler

I picked up the MM on release day, flipped through it, saw the new monster system, saw that the Succubus and Dryad were stereotypical combat monsters, saw that they lost most of the cool abilities, and then looked for the racial mods of the monsters, and put it on the shelf disgusted at the content but liking the artwork. Then I picked up the PHB, flipped to the races, didn't like the selection of races, flipped to the classes, flipped to the casters, noticed a lack of multiclassing and a lack of mind affecting spells, and summoning spells, and pretty much all the cool things about wizards, and saw that mages were all evocation, and put the PHB back on the shelf disgusted. I've played through a couple games, and it played ok. I wouldnt call it a roleplaying game, but it makes an ok boredgame for an afternoon.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I'm with Sylrae- the AU/AE racial classes are a winner. It worked for Monte Cook, and its worked for the PC-approved homebrew races in my campaign.