Requiring Players To Draw The Dungeon Map!

[Ed_Laprade]

Or maybe once they try it and get through it, they will appreciate the challenge and derive pleasure from developing that skill.

If the players don't enjoy the kind of activity that may require mapping for navigation, they have no business stepping foot inside a dungeon.

Been there, done that, hated it. You project a full sized, 3-D, full color representation of what my character is seeing and I'll be happy to map it. However, I have absolutely no interest, whatsoever, in you verbal description of same.

 

[Gentlegamer]

Been there, done that, hated it. You project a full sized, 3-D, full color representation of what my character is seeing and I'll be happy to map it. However, I have absolutely no interest, whatsoever, in you verbal description of same.

Perhaps you would prefer to play via Neverwinter Nights instead of in-person role-playing. I've heard that it does a great job providing visual aids (though I have no experience of it myself).

 

[ruleslawyer]

I don't require mapping (but recognize that it is a handy tool that skilled players will make use of), but I will reply:
I will give "extra" info (such as more exact dimensions, angles, grades in slopes, etc.) and additional reminders of certain info (number of turns). This is to supplement the player's own mapping and notes (whatever form that takes). I would not allow such stats to act as a "saving throw vs. mapping." Similarly, I do not allow high Intelliegence to act as a "saving throw vs. puzzle."

Except that making maps, orienteering, and mentally tracking spatial dynamics and directions are in fact part of a definable set of skills, namely those captured under the Survival skill. Likewise, keeping track of how many twists and turns x passage took and being able to remember the number of steps from corridor N to corridor R are simple memory functions, which are about as core a function of an Int score as you get.

Are you also having players get up from the table, take a standing broad jump, and use their Jump skill to "supplement" the results? Sounds like fun.

IMHO, having players draw dungeon maps is not "challenging the player," per se, in the way that presenting a puzzle does; rather, it's making the player do something that his character either should or shouldn't be capable of doing, and is choosing to do or refrain from doing. Characters set up tents, build fires, cook dinner, fetch water, and so on; I don't think players should be required to do that either.

 

[Mallus]

Or maybe once they try it and get through it, they will appreciate the challenge and derive pleasure from developing that skill.

edit: a better, booze-based analogy...

That's like telling a beer drinker that if they just drink enough neat bourbon they'll develop a taste for it. I can tell you from experience, some people just think the stuff tastes like varnish, no matter how much you try to convince them otherwise. So what's the big deal if they stick to beer?

If the players don't enjoy the kind of activity that may require mapping for navigation, they have no business stepping foot inside a dungeon.

It's a good thing then that the players aren't actually stepping foot inside a dungeon. They're meeting with friends for some some fun and games. Emphasis on the 'fun' part.

What's tough for PC's has to be entertaining for the players (like combat, for instance). Obstacles that are tough on the players, and offer no enjoyment through the act of overcoming them are, ummm, well a dubious choice, game design-wise.

All I advocating is for the gameplay to be fun in and of iteself. Not a radical position, really...

 

[Gentlegamer]

Except that making maps, orienteering, and mentally tracking spatial dynamics and directions are in fact part of a definable set of skills, namely those captured under the Survival skill. Likewise, keeping track of how many twists and turns x passage took and being able to remember the number of steps from corridor N to corridor R are simple memory functions, which are about as core a function of an Int score as you get.

Are you also having players get up from the table, take a standing broad jump, and use their Jump skill to "supplement" the results? Sounds like fun.

The difference between the first skill and the second is that the first is primarily one that challenges the mental faculties and the second challenges the physical faculties.

The game itself is one that makes use of the mental and social faculties of the participants, so skillful use of those faculties by the players is part and parcel of the game.

"Physical challenges" fall squarely on the characters to perform, and constitute a large part of the "let's pretend" portion of the game. So, no: players are not required to make broadjumps, swing swords, climb walls, etc. The character's abilities in those areas measure the success or failure; however, even here, there is still large use of player skill such as in what strategies and tactics to use to overcome a physical challenge (most commonly in combat)

 

[Counterspin]

There's no "orthodoxy" involved here. Part of the game experience of dungeoneering is navigating the tunnels, caves, chambers, etc. Mapping aids in this navigation. The player who wishes to explore that kind of environment should not balk at the prospect of drawing his own maps as such an aid. If that kind of activity is not of the player's preference, there are other adventure locales (wilderness, city, simple dungeons) available. To me, that is like a player participating in other aspects of the game to refuse to take notes (of what certain NPCs have said, clues, etc.). It's really part and parcel of the game and its play experience.

It is not part and parcel to the dungeon experience. The thread is full of people who've dungeoneered just fine without it. Thus your point was demolished before you even posted. And to follow up with the 'ole "Go play your little videogames" is beyond hilarious.

 

[Gentlegamer]

It is not part and parcel to the dungeon experience. The thread is full of people who've dungeoneered just fine without it.

They are missing out on part of that experience, in my opinion. Because they omit that part and parcel doesn't mean it isn't there (the fact that other procedures have to be used in its place confirms its existence).

And to follow up with the 'ole "Go play your little videogames" is beyond hilarious.

Without opening the "are video game RPGs actual RPGs," the description I have heard of NWN is that is a tool by which participants can play D&D using the game engine as visual aids. That is, a DM is directing the action and can show the players exactly what their characters are seeing (it's used as an online RPG tool like WebRPG). I thought this would satisfy the poster's desire for full 3D visual representation of the imaginary dungeon environment. I didn't intend my reference to NWN to mean "go play some lesser game" or some such.

 

[Raven Crowking]

It is not part and parcel to the dungeon experience. The thread is full of people who've dungeoneered just fine without it. Thus your point was demolished before you even posted. And to follow up with the 'ole "Go play your little videogames" is beyond hilarious.

So far beyond hilarious, that it came back again into relevant, on the basis of the post it was responding to:

You project a full sized, 3-D, full color representation of what my character is seeing and I'll be happy to map it. However, I have absolutely no interest, whatsoever, in you verbal description of same.

I don't care if players map or not. However, the "evidence" being used to "prove" Gentlegamer wrong is bad reasoning at best.

For example, while the players may well never take part in the physical challenges facing thier characters, if they do not take part in the mental challenges facing their characters, then the players might as well not be there. One can make an argument that says "I prefer the players only take on this subset of mental challenges" but any argument that argues that the subset cannot, and should not be altered (extended or reduced) is clearly fallicious.

Which means, yes, you can have the players make Survival or Int checks in lieu of mapping. Or, yes, you can make mapping one of the mental challenges that players face. You can certainly have a strong preference for either one. But neither is "right" or "wrong" in any objective sense.

Gentlegamer is correct in saying that "Part of the game experience of dungeoneering is navigating the tunnels, caves, chambers, etc. Mapping aids in this navigation." Within the context of his own prefered game style he is correct in saying that "The player who wishes to explore that kind of environment should not balk at the prospect of drawing his own maps as such an aid." However, the implication that this is a universal truth is not correct.

Personally, though, I'd rather have Gentlegamer as a DM than someone who said "Don't worry about that stuff; just make a Survival check."

IMHO. YMMV. YDMB.

RC

 

[Mallus]

You can certainly have a strong preference for either one. But neither is "right" or "wrong" in any objective sense.

I think there is a more or less objective wrong here. It's wrong to run a game where the DM repeatedly challenges players with things they don't enjoy.

 

[Harmon]

Not required, just suggested.

We have a 4'x8' table with plastic and 1" grid on the it, real easy to draw, set up the battle. It makes it really easy to draw the map on a piece of graph paper. Our GM generally gives us copies of it after the campaign is over, but I like to have the copy I make with little notes on it.

Also makes it easier to remember what room you want to go back to so you can stop and rest for the night.