Reserve Feat - Dimensional Reach

Ragmon

Explorer
As a DM I would allow it, the caster is sacrificing a SA to avoid 1 slow moving, small, physical projectile. (a reflex or dexterity roll might be appropriate, if ya feel like it)

But as RAW goes, the projectile will exist in 2 states:
1 - Attended by the shooter.
2A - Attended by the target who got shot.
2B - Unattended where the projectile landed/hit (with a chance of being broken).

So what I was trying to say is, there is no in-between as far as the rules are concerned. Only here or there.
 

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Celebrim

Legend
Both you and Dandu seem to feel that this feat is overshadowed by the spells it mimics as well as by various magic items like scrolls, wands and the Hand of the Mage. If this is your honest opinion, and those items exist in your campaign world, then do bazaars still exist? If so, why?

Sure. Good, question.

In a nutshell, it's because this feat does only one thing well - enable shoplifting - and almost nothing else. Whereas those other spells do many things well, but do not do shoplifting any better or perhaps worse than a skilled person exercising mundane skill.

The Reserve Feat enables you to teleport items into your hand as a supernatural ability. That means no spell components. That means instantaneous travel. That means that you have an undetectable means of taking any object you can see. Objects smaller than your hand don't have any give away - any 'tell' - at all. The poor shop keeper is absolutely over matched. The amount of 'Spot' skill he'd have to have to notice you pulling a trick like that is beyond what is reasonable for a low level character. Any defenses he might employ don't stand a chance. In that situation, human nature would take over. Have you ever wondered why given that something like terrorism causes much fewer deaths than say heart attacks, the existence of terrorism changes human behavior more than the existence of heart attacks? It's because one thing that humans innately dislike more than just about anything else is being taken advantage of, abused, by another human being. If shopkeepers know that the live in a universe where some people can steal from them with impunity, they'll never display their wares publicly. The way people shop will change completely. Merchandise will be locked in cabinets and people will describe what they want, and the shopkeeper will display it to them. Or maybe they'll themselves adopt magical solutions and display illusionary goods. Whatever, there will be no bazaars.

By comparison, Mage Hand and Unseen Servant and the like are not a particularly big threat. Mage Hand is a spell. To cast it you must speak loudly and clearly, and make certain motions. Even if the person doesn't know what you are doing, in a society with magic they'll recognize you are casting a spell and take whatever action social custom deems proper - likely, casting a spell in public without obtaining permission is the equivalent of taking a gun out, cocking it and waving it around. People will freak - and rightly so. Even if you conceal the spellcasting or have an object you can invoke, Mage Hand only moves objects slowly - 15 feet per 6 seconds. It takes a whole second to drag that apple 2 1/2 feet. This is something an observant shop keeper has a reasonable chance of noticing. It doesn't take legendary sharp eyes to notice things like that, just ordinary ability. It's not noticeably superior to the application of mundane pilfering skills, and actually it's probably inferior - the Mage Hand is not quicker than the eye.

Similar things apply to Unseen Servant. Although the Unseen Servant is vastly superior to the Mage Hand for pilfering goods - not the least because it can act without your attention, supervision, or any obvious direct connection to you - it's still not a particularly good thief. It can't attempt any skillful action. If the Unseen Servant tries to filch apples, the DC of spotting the action is 10. A street urchin with basic sleight of hand skills is a worse problem in this regard than this 3rd level Wizard (or 4th level sorcerer). Of course, the Wizard could try to turn invisible to filch the apples, but if he does he'll find that Bazaars actually defend against invisible creatures. A crowded bazaar is very difficult to negotiate when you are invisible. And as soon as someone bumps into you, in a world where they know about invisible creatures, they're going to rightly panic and you'll find yourself in a very difficult place indeed.

The point is though, the Reserve Feat only does one thing well - filch unattended things. The spells in question though let you manipulate things at a distance, which has far more applications.
 

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
I'm sorry C., but that answer is inconsistent with your position about the ubiquity of magic.

The spells and items that can turn you into a competent thief are- in standard D&D meta/game design logic (things in the core books are more common than things in supplements*)- infinitely more common than this reserve feat. And then you assume that all the other options out there will force all the bazaars to have magical defenses against them...

In addition, by your own evaluation, the feat is only good for one thing, thievery. Honestly, how many casters in your game worlds want to be thieves? Paraphrasing a certain song, its more likely they want to rule the world, and will choose their feats accordingly. This one won't be on their radar.

Third, there are casters out there who can't even qualify for this feat because of their class spell list.

Fourth, there are better ways to steal from a bazaar with magic. An illusory or summoned monster will clear the place with a stampede of humanity, leaving it ripe for a good old grab & run. And for bigger & and better stuff, I might add.

And you contend it's the pokey reserve feat that shutters the markets?

I call shenanigans.





* assuming said supplement is even allowed in the campaign.
 
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Celebrim

Legend
I'm sorry C., but that answer is inconsistent with your position about the ubiquity of magic.

My position on the ubiquity of magic is, however common magic is, people will have developed equally economical defenses against it and will employ them. My position is always that the PC's are never the first people to have tried things that are obvious.

The spells and items that can turn you into a competent thief are- in standard D&D meta/game design logic (things in the core books are more common than things in supplements*)

Wait... what??? That might apply as a mean across campaigns... maybe. I don't think that there are demographic implications like that explicitly. And implicitly, anything that is legal to the setting (available in a particular campaign) will perforce by an evolutionary process become as common as it is useful. This reserve feat would only be uncommon in a world where bazaars don't exist, because it's just too good in a world where they do.

And then you assume that all the other options out there will force all the bazaars to have magical defenses against them...

My assumption is that whatever magic exists, always has an equally economical counter-measure. In general, characters of equal level should be able to address the threats of equal level characters, and that societies will evolve toward that equilibrium.

Honestly, how many casters in your game worlds want to be thieves?

Depends on how profitable being a thief is. Maybe the question should be, "How many thieves in your game world will want to be casters?"

Fourth, there are better ways to steal from a bazaar with magic. An illusory or summoned monster will clear the place with a stampede of humanity, leaving it ripe for a good old grab & run. And for bigger & and better stuff, I might add.

Won't work. The secret of being a thief is to stay off people's radar. This an attempt to conquer a market, not steal from it. Again you have the problem of casting in a public place, and if you can pull it off, then you have the problem that not everyone will run. Some people will pass their saving throw, or some people will take up arms to defend their property. In fact, based on my experiences with the third world, most people will - quite unlike first world people - consider their property and livelihood to be their life, and will fight to protect their possessions, because they know that if deprived of property they and their families will be destitute, devastated, and may die horrible deaths. You try to pull of a stunt with a summon monster II as a 3rd level spellcaster in a market place , you're going to be in a world of hurt in a hurry as not everyone will flee, and those that do flee will bring the 'powers that be' down on top of you. And you've got 3 rounds of monsters to protect you, the worst of which is probably a 2 HD lemure that will be a threat but not an overwhelming threat even to shopkeepers and the like. At 5th level you get major image and 5 rounds of a hell hound, and now you are starting to look like a bit of a threat, but this sort of banditry is going to give you a very short life expectancy. Could you get away with the strategy of 'conquer the marketplace' as an 11th or 15th level spellcaster. Probably so. You can handle whatever the city throws at you most likely. But sooner or later, going around muscling over small cities is going to draw the attention of the settings heavy hitters.

By contrast, this feat gives you virtual impunity to shoplift from a very early point in a spellcaster's career.

The only argument that I can see that is a defense against this is to argue that NPC's and PC's a fundamentally different. That PC's are super-special individuals that can chart their own life path, that wizardry is only available to special people, and that people don't really choose their own careers but are born to them. Thus, you might argue that feats - or the ability to cast magic - are like knacks or the ability to cast magic in Harry Potter world. But if you go that route hard, it I think is going to have other equally big implications about how the world works.
 
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Dandu

First Post
By contrast, this feat gives you virtual impunity to shoplift from a very early point in a spellcaster's career.

The only argument that I can see that is a defense against this is to argue that NPC's and PC's a fundamentally different. That PC's are super-special individuals that can chart their own life path, that wizardry is only available to special people, and that people don't really choose their own careers but are born to them. Thus, you might argue that feats - or the ability to cast magic - are like knacks or the ability to cast magic in Harry Potter world. But if you go that route hard, it I think is going to have other equally big implications about how the world works.

I think that there might be deterrence from harsh punishment for stealing. At a minimum, you have rich merchants, the mob they pay protection money to, the local lord, paladins, and the wizard school out for you. This is a pretty bad situation to be in, given how well these groups are at finding out information or using divination. And we all know what the punishment is from stealing from a bazaar.
 

I think that there might be deterrence from harsh punishment for stealing. At a minimum, you have rich merchants, the mob they pay protection money to, the local lord, paladins, and the wizard school out for you. This is a pretty bad situation to be in, given how well these groups are at finding out information or using divination. And we all know what the punishment is from stealing from a bazaar.
If you have a world where the local lords and organized crime are both using divination magic, then you get a world that looks very little like a traditional fantasy setting. As a general rule, the more common magic is, the less the setting is recognizable; and divination is probably the one school of magic that is most disruptive to maintaining the status quo.
 

Dandu

First Post
The wizards and the paladins have access to divination, or at least the church does. The lord may as he may have a wizard or priest in his employ. The mob, of course, has ears everywhere, unless the thief also has a very good fence.
 
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Celebrim

Legend
If you have a world where the local lords and organized crime are both using divination magic, then you get a world that looks very little like a traditional fantasy setting. As a general rule, the more common magic is, the less the setting is recognizable; and divination is probably the one school of magic that is most disruptive to maintaining the status quo.

Most low level divinations at best would give you a cryptic clue regarding who was stealing from places of business. Divination is a 4th level spell and just gives you a clue - not the answer. Even very powerful and disruptive divinations like Commune aren't particularly useful for tracking down a thief unless you already have a good idea who the thief is. There are some powerful object finders like Locate Object, but they have a limited range and don't help you find general objects like a stack of gold coins. Plus, you can presume that professional fences would have magical means of evading detection equivalent to whatever characters that they assumed would be tracking them. This is pretty obvious if you try to track stolen goods as a PC against anything but the most incompetent foe.

Since even 9th level characters are rare in my game world, it's just not feasible to use much more powerful techniques than that - and even a Commune would require a national emergency before someone would use it. They aren't going to use it to track your stolen necklace - the royal seal maybe, but someone potent enough to go after the royal seal has equivalent counter-measures.
 
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Dandu

First Post
If we want to get into abundance, Dimension Reach requires the ability to cast 3rd level teleportation spells, so we're talking 5th level wizard at the earliest. Not many of those floating around to begin with, and a 5th level wizard certainly has better things to do with his time.

What does he even need to rob the bazaar for? There's easier ways of generating money - not that wizards need money per se anyways.
 

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
If we want to get into abundance, Dimension Reach requires the ability to cast 3rd level teleportation spells, so we're talking 5th level wizard at the earliest. Not many of those floating around to begin with, and a 5th level wizard certainly has better things to do with his time.

What does he even need to rob the bazaar for? There's easier ways of generating money - not that wizards need money per se anyways.
Actually, it's conjuration (summoning) spells, not teleportation spells, but that's your only error.
 

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