Restricting Monster Movement

[Shin Okada]

i have some questions about some of the other spells mentioned, but i will do my homework before i ask. Aside from the draconomicon, where are the basic flight rules? The mm?

dmg

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Also here: Movement :: d20srd.org

Most dragons have poor or clumsy maneuverability, and it will seldom get better than average, even with feats or spells to improve maneuvering. So the idea of it so easily flying backwards threw me off.

For what you describe...other than for perfect maneuverability, each space of ascension costs twice the movement (10 ft of movement to go 5 ft up). Descending also gives double the normal rate of movement (10 ft down for 5 ft of movement). This is due to gravity, unless you're on a plane with different gravity. Now, if it has a bad fly maneuverability, it needs to follow the table restrictions. Note below average, you can only make single turns of 45 degrees, and needs 5-10 ft of movement before each turn. So...if by hopping, it looks something like this:
^ (please pretend that's a 90 degree angle, ok? )
/ \
/ \
/ \
/ \
A B
--------
ground

...then the DM is probably being unfair with its movement.

Enclosing it with walls is a good idea. Wall of ice can be made as a hemisphere but can just get melted away... If you're willing to cast several walls of stone, that could work. But really, if it's on the ground, subject it to Evard's Black Tentacles (and these can extend 10 ft up if it's flying close to the ground), Entangle, Web, Rock to Mud, etc...

For what it's worth, the specific spells you may want to keep it from flying are Wingbind and Downdraft, both from the Spell Compendium book.

EDIT: Post messed up my spacing, now the diagram doesn't make any sense.

 

[Jhaelen]

What is an OP?

Opening Post(er), i.e. you(r first post that started this thread).

 

[NewJeffCT]

Stream - Wall of Stone can be shaped - the spell descriptor has an (S) after it. So, a level 12 caster can create 12 five foot squares. That can surround a size Huge dragon, but would succeed in only giving it cover, as it would be only 5 feet high.

Wall of Force might be the best option, as you can't damage or dispel it unless the dragon has a Rod of Cancellation, can cast Disjunction or Disintegrate. It is also a 10 foot wall/level instead of 5. Breath weapons can also not pass through the Wall of Force!

 

[cheshire_grin]

For what you describe...other than for perfect maneuverability, each space of ascension costs twice the movement (10 ft of movement to go 5 ft up). Descending also gives double the normal rate of movement (10 ft down for 5 ft of movement). This is due to gravity, unless you're on a plane with different gravity. Now, if it has a bad fly maneuverability, it needs to follow the table restrictions. Note below average, you can only make single turns of 45 degrees, and needs 5-10 ft of movement before each turn.

That doesn't necessarily prohibit hopping. The dragon can turn no more than 45 degrees per 5' move -- so a shallower climb/descend would still fit, as would something like:

   _____________________
  /                     \
 /                       \
/                         \

(where the two turns are each 45 degrees or less). It may mean he moves slightly less than his absolute move in distance, but it's entirely doable.

 

[NewJeffCT]

So far this thread has been everything I'd hoped for.

What is an OP?

The dragon is 'hopping' from place to place. During combat, it is specifically mentioned that it hops from place to place, and never very far. I assume this hold true for when it retreats: it takes off in a direction at it's max movement and lands. Since we haven't had an encounter where we've casted fly + haste, I can't tell you how many times it double moves back. It retreats from whence it came, so I will grant the DM at least one double move without worrying about impaired vision (if it hasn't moved around too much this combat). Impaired vision is still a very good point and one worthy of consideration whenever we're in combat.

As to the dragon's fly mobility, I was not aware they required a running start. This makes casting a wall much more useful. Is there a specific design you would recommend? I think the wall needs to be at least 10 feet high so a huge dragon doesn't just 'step' over it, no?

I have some questions about some of the other spells mentioned, but I will do my homework before I ask. Aside from the Draconomicon, where are the basic flight rules? The MM?

Remember, though, if it double moves, it cannot attack. If you're playing with just the 3 core rule books, the quicken breath weapon feat should not be available to the dragon, and since it casts as a sorcerer, it should not be able to quicken a spell, since that is a full round action and it just spent both its standard and move action to double move.

 

[Lookoo]

I think the fly movement is probably being handled incorrectly, but I don't think it's the reason the dragon has gotten away or been so tough. I am more concerned with the dragon double moving through unfamiliar terrain / darkness than whether the fly movement is being abused. I think it is quite clear that the wall of stone/force/ice/blade barrier are the way to go. There's no doubt in my mind that those will help tremendously. We have to be able to corner it and that's what these spells will do for us.

My thanks to everyone for all the input. I think I now have a good handle on how the combat should flow. Thanks for answering the OP question too.

 

[NewJeffCT]

I think the fly movement is probably being handled incorrectly, but I don't think it's the reason the dragon has gotten away or been so tough. I am more concerned with the dragon double moving through unfamiliar terrain / darkness than whether the fly movement is being abused. I think it is quite clear that the wall of stone/force/ice/blade barrier are the way to go. There's no doubt in my mind that those will help tremendously. We have to be able to corner it and that's what these spells will do for us.

My thanks to everyone for all the input. I think I now have a good handle on how the combat should flow. Thanks for answering the OP question too.

I'm sure I speak for a few others - let us know how the next dragon encounter goes. Good luck!

 

[yellowparis]

Another option is suggestion, which is pretty excellent for this kind of situation. Next time the dragon shows up, don't just refuse to pay it ... insult it, its mother, and its personal grooming habits. Let it initiate the fight, then have one of those wizards (or more than one, if you want to pad the odds) hit it with suggestion. Something to the effect of: "Kill us all!"

Heighten it, if you can. Even if you can't, it may well take a penalty to its save - suggestion does that when you make a 'very reasonable' request. As a generalization, a dragon will find killing you reasonable if you've just been mocking it relentlessly. And if it just initiated the fight, that penalty to Will sounds even more plausible.

The spell lasts hours/level, and it would basically ensure that the dragon never even thinks about retreating to lick its wounds (not until it has, indeed, killed you all).