restrictions on powers vs feats discussion

[Fifth Element]

You kept bringing up feats as a comparison, so I kept shooting them down as they do not translate well in the comparison by their nature of acquisition.

You didn't shoot them down. You made inaccurate claims about them. That you can take any feat any time you gain a feat, for example. I illustrated how that it not true.

Do you need to be at a level at which you are scheduled to gain a feat? Yes. Similar to 4E power acquisition.

Do you need to meet prerequisites for the particular feat to be chosen? Usually. Though not always. So the difference here between 3E and 4E is a matter of degree. But it's quite similar, especially given some feats have explicit class/level prerequisites, which is what 4E uses for powers.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

You kept bringing up feats as a comparison, so I kept shooting them down as they do not translate well in the comparison by their nature of acquisition.

Powers are a mix of spells and class abilities (in a way, spells were the class abilities spellcasters in D&D got). Unlike as for most 3E classes, you get to choose which class ability you get for certain slots. But there is still some structure to them.

And I still fail to see the problem with this. Unless you say proscribed class abilities are bad, or abilities that give you a choice are bad.

 

[GwydapLlew]

You kept bringing up feats as a comparison, so I kept shooting them down as they do not translate well in the comparison by their nature of acquisition.

Perhaps a better way to phrase it would be '...I keep trying to shoot them down as in my opinion, they do not translate...'

Quite a few of us disagree with the conclusions you are trying to reach.

 

[Najo]

I think I understand what Justanobody is trying to say but is having trouble communicating it, and is now misunderstood a bit. I think he is saying that he doesn't like how 4e says you are getting a utilitly power here, an encounter power here at this level and a daily power here at this level. Where he would prefer you have more freedom in choosing your powers across your levels based on how you want your character to feel.

Is this correct Justanobody?

Regardless, lets keep this thread on track and friendly. I don't think anyone is intending to be disrespectful but it seems some people are getting frustrated.

I like to hear more ideas about 4e powers could be done. Good stuff so far everyone.

 

[justanobody]

Is this correct Justanobody?

Pretty sure I had said it clearly before, but yup again that's right.

I want to be able to chose the power I want, not be told when I can get a utility/etc power specifically.

I don't care being told I have to wait until level 4 to get a power, I just want to be able to pick which type I want.

I also don't mind only being allowed only 2 encounter powers, 2 dailies, 2 utilities, etc by 6th level. Just want to choose the order I get them myself.

Would prefer non being hemmed down to X of power type Y, but can understand it more, than "you can only get a utility power at level 2 and 6."

Hope that makes sense and gets all the little bits in there.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I also don't mind only being allowed only 2 encounter powers, 2 dailies, 2 utilities, etc by 6th level. Just want to choose the order I get them myself.

So you don't mind being told that by 6th level, you're only allowed 2 dailies, 2 utilities, 2 encounters, and 2 at-wills, right?

Do you mind being told that by 5th level, you're only allowed 2 dailies, 1 utility, 2 encounters, and 2 at-wills?

-Hyp.

 

[justanobody]

So you don't mind being told that by 6th level, you're only allowed 2 dailies, 2 utilities, 2 encounters, and 2 at-wills, right?

Do you mind being told that by 5th level, you're only allowed 2 dailies, 1 utility, 2 encounters, and 2 at-wills?

-Hyp.

I understand more, considering powers follow the same lines of spells as that is pretty much how they work; that you can only have X of each type of power.

You remember the old gain 1/1/0/1 levels spells progression. That is what powers follow.

But unless you are an illusionist that can't choose from the school of opposition, you are not told you cannot get an abjuration spell otherwise. You can choose which ever type of spell you want.

So 5th level, 6th level; same thing.

I chose to mention 6th level because it was the first place to choose a second utility power.

So following those older spell progresion tables, I can fully understand getting X encounter, Y utility, Z daily powers at a certain level; but don't like being told exactly which level to get them.

It gets wonky because of the way they are, but if they were broader as to the number of powers you get and times you can get them it would work better.

Not pin down 6th level being the exact power is a utility power, but you get a max number of powers of each type at 6th level, and you can choose them in any order up until then.

So until 6th level you only get 1 utility power, and choose which level you get it.

I would probably need to rework the whole power allotment chart and spell it out better to get the idea across to everyone, but the principle is don't tell me I have to choose an encounter now, when I may want a utility instead for the character I want to play, vs what the game/designers wants me to play.

Because I might just not want to focus solely on combat powers.

You kind of got into the gray area I was trying to avoid until I had a chance to work with the powers array when I had time this weekend.

 

[cwhs01]

You might have to think about the level of powers as well, as you might get into trouble (balance issue wise) if you could choose level 6 powers at level 1 (as an example). eg. at level 6 choose any one power equal to your level or lower. Sideeffects may be an increase in the 15min. adventure day, if pc's insist on only choosing daily powers. Or they may be slightly worse at combat if never choosing daily powers?

The system in place is imo more restrictive than its somewhat similar systems in 3x (spell selection or feat selection), and very limited to a pointbuy system. But it seems to work okay if you accept its limitations.
The best (or worst?) thing about it is that it keeps pc-power relatively balanced regardless of choices made during advancement. and its simple.

 

[justanobody]

I am thinking just making 6 "levels" of power limits.
1-5
6-10
11-15
etc

So from 1-5 you get X daily, Y, utility, Z enounter.

You get to choose which level you get them at.

Kinda like how you need X milestones to get an action point, but nothing dictates when you can use an action point. An encounter cannot say that you cannot use an action point in this exact encounter if you have one.

So you would get to choose which spell(power) you want and when.

That would allow more freeform choice, rather than saying you much get a utility power at level 6.

This shouldn't cause much problems since everything is scalable within 5 levels.

I mean the whole everything having a level that is not directly related to PC level is already broken with items not requiring you to be a certain level to use them, so why should powers depend on PC level to get them if they are within the range.

At-wills neveer change how many you can get or when you get them so form 1st-5th level you would get to choose the powers in any order with the limits of.

2/2/1

6th-10th level gets: 3/3/3

But you are not told exactly which level you much take those 2 new utility powers, or the new encounter or daily.

So I don't think it would cause too much trouble with a power shift as monsters can scale up a bit like normal.

The only major problem is replacing powers. Let any power be replaced at any time.

Keep encounter for encounter if you must, but don't dictate that you must replace an encounter power at 16th level.