Retention of Paladin and Monk multiclass restrictions in 3.5ed

Retention of Paladin and Monk multiclass restrictions in 3.5ed

  • Happy with the decision

    Votes: 61 30.3%
  • Disappointed by the decision

    Votes: 140 69.7%

It is a flavor rule. It is campaign specific as demonstrated by the change in the FRCS.

Since Greyhawk is the "default" campaign this applies to Greyhawk.

Player's are complaining because their DM doesn't want to change something. That is also a campaign problem, not a rules problem.

I agree that these two classes have a requirement for dedication to their respective class. This is better handled on a campaign basis.

So in all these "rules" the DM is still the best judge of what should be allowed or not in his campaign.
 

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Psion said:
I disagree. Sure, you can house rule around it. But one of the major advantages the fundamental "option not restrictions" mindset of 3e brought was a reduction in the necessity of houseruling around wonky restrictions. In shifting from 2e to 3e, I was able to drop about 75% of my houserules.
*shrug* And I disagree with you - I still have a bunch of house rules. So? Everyone is different. You'll never have a game that's house-rule free. And the removal of this particular rule is hardly a great burden for the anti-house rule folk.
I intend to continue to circumvent the restriction. But those who aren't DMs don't have that luxury, and there are a great many conservative DMs and/or uniformed DMs who think there is some balance boogieman behind this that will clamp down on their players because of it.
And, back to what I said earlier - that's the DM's problem, not WotC's.
Some flavor rules, sure. Flavor rules that, if this poll is any indication, 2:1 are against? No.
Eh. Who cares if 2:1 of ENWorld is against this rule? I don't, and I'm sure glad WotC doesn't either. (Reminds me of the Simpsons and Proposition 43 - "Please note that this is only an (internet) poll, and is not legally binding - unless Proposition 43 passes, and we all hope it does".) ENWorld polls... uh-huh...
 

Kahuna Burger said:
I instituted exactly this sort of rule in my campaign, along with the continuous progression on bab and saves recomended here. (that is to say, instead of adding the saves and bab as presented, your monk3 rogue4 cleric2 has 9 levels of 3/4 bab, 5 levels of good fort and will, 7 levels of good reflex, etc.)
My own twist was to rewrite Good Saves to give +1 at 1st, +2 at 2nd, +3 at 3rd, and then slip into the progression as-printed.

This cut front loading, and even made adding Defense Rolls (= Reflex) easier later on.
 

The problem with Saves is the formula used to calculate saves:

(Class Level)/2, round down +2 for good saves (Class Level > 0)
(Class Level)/3, round down for bad saves.

Similarly, BAB is either
Class Level - Fighter-types (no problem)
Class Level*3/4, round down (cleric/rogue types)
Class Leve/2, round down (wizard types).

I don't do this because I don't want to have to do all the math, but if I could re-do it I would change the computation to:

SAVES:
(Total Class Levels With Good Save)/2 + 2 (Class Level > 0)
plus
(Total Class Levels With Bad Save)/3
then round down

And BAB
Total Class Levels with Fighter-Type BAB
plus
(Total Class Levels with Cleric-Type BAB)*3/4
plus
(Total Class Levels with Wizard-Type BAB)/2

THEN round down.

Thus, the monk3 (all good saves) rogue4 (ref good) cleric2 (fort good, will good) has:

REF SAVE:
(3+4)/2 + 2
plus
(2)/3

or (7/2)+2 plus 2/3 or 3.5+2+.67 or 6.17, rounded down for a +6

Compare to rules as written where he gets a +3 (monk) +4 (rogue) +0 (cleric) for +7.

WILL, FORT SAVES:
(3+2)/2 + 2
plus
(4)/3

or (5/2)+2+4/3 or 2.5+2+1.33 or 5.83, rounded down for a +5.

Compare to rules as written where he gets +3 (monk) +3 (cleric) +1 (rogue) for +7.

--The Sigil
 

First off I didn't vote. I don't care one way or the other what the rule is writen at. And actually most of the folks disliking the rule don't care either - if its houseruled in your campaign why do you care? I do wish these rules and the druid weapons etc were writen in the DMG as 'variant'. Either way as long as those 'flavor' rules are written somewhere and noted that they can be used as 'variants' I think it'd be a much better situation.

Second, from some limited martial arts experince, if I missed class for a week or two, coming back I was rusty. Looking at the way dnd does leveling, spending time gaining level in cleric then going back to monk, I think it'd be difficult to figure out. Some folks can learn multiple martial arts, and switch and combine. I can't. I wrestled in high school, and that still screws me up half the time.

Finally as a question, are monk/sorcerers or monk/wizards a scary class combo? I mean at that point your wiz has armor (from the monk levels without penalty) and can melee and cast spells. It just seems like that could be a really ugly combo. I'm actually curious if anyone has used/seen one and if they were overpowering.
-cpd
 

arnwyn said:

Really? Nice try - I don't buy that for a second.

In any case, I'm glad they kept it. A monkey can remove that rule if he/she wants to, so there is no problem with it being there.

If some DM wants to adhere to the rules strictly and then complain about them, then that's their problem, not WotC's.

(Without *some* form of flavor rules, this game would be simply be bland garbage.)

Yes, there is. Anyone who plays Living Greyhawk (and there are thousands upon thousands of us) has to abide by the Core rules. We don't get a choice about house ruling it. Buy that?
 

Bill Muench said:


Yes, there is. Anyone who plays Living Greyhawk (and there are thousands upon thousands of us) has to abide by the Core rules. We don't get a choice about house ruling it. Buy that?

And since the "default" world is Greyhawk, it makes perfect sense that the Greyhawk flavor rules should apply to the legions of you...

Still makes the "flavor" campaign dependent.
 

Well, aside from what a lot of the posters in this thread think, it DOES matter what the official rule is, because some people have (otherwise great) DMs who will go by it says in the PHB and ONLY by what it says in the PHB, out of some fear that the multiclassing rules are for some reason other than flavor, no matter how many times it is explained to them otherwise. And it IS a flavor restriction, nothing more.

I want to play my paladin/cleric, but, for some unknowable reason, this isn't allowed!

(Need to be dedicated to be a paladin? How much more dedicated can you get than a paladin/cleric!?)
 

Aaron L said:

<snip>
DMs who will go by it says in the PHB and ONLY by what it says in the PHB

Once again proving that the problem is with the campaign and not with the "rules."

Take a look at the DMG, it specifically states that the DM has free reign of what he puts into his campaign. I believe it also mentions that he should discuss with the group which "rules" he will apply. That is a perfect time for those that don't agree with the core rules to dissent.

The Core Rules provide you with the rules as they apply to the default setting - Greyhawk. If you don't play in Greyhawk, then you should feel free to change anything to your taste. You don't need to convince Wizards, you need to talk to your DM. Does your DM also use the "default" deities, which by the way are also Greyhawk specific?
 

The thing is (and this is one of the things they've said they're fixin') that each class should be built that, unless your character concept desires multiclassing, you won't WANT to multiclass just to gain some mechanical advantage. And that if your character concept desires multiclassing, there should be no limit on it.

So, no, not every wizard would take a level in monk for AC and save boost, because multiclassing as a spellcaster *cripples* your high level effectiveness. If you're fighting CR 5-6 critters and don't have Fireball or Lightning Bolt, your party's going to have a harder time of things. Basically, another level of Wizard should be better than level one Monk powers in the same way that another level of Wizard should be better than level one Ranger powers, etc. Right now, this seems true -- no spellcaster in any of the games I've run has been even half tempted to multiclass as a monk because they'd loose all the neat spells...I mean, Mage Armor is as good as Wis Bonus to AC, Shocking Grasp is better than an unarmed strike, and Charm Person is better than stunning fist.

And I think that the 'The DM can't take these away!' is mostly a moot point, because (IMHO) any DM worth his salt doesn't create challenges by taking away the player's abilities, they do it by playing to the strength of the characters. So maybe there will be ONE adventure out of an entire campaign where the PC's find themselves stripped of equipment just to let the Monk shine a bit. But if there's no Monk in the party, that adventure probably won't exist, because it will just universally torque off the players.

They've said they're going to alter the front-loaded-ness of some of the classes (like Monk or Paladin), so the early abilities of those classes are also mostly a moot argument (and wouldn't prevent someone from getting it besides).

So, then, the argument is that the high level powers of the classes are more powerful than the high level powers of other classes? Well, (a) nothing now stops someone from getting to a high level and then switching classes just for the high level benefit, and (b) if they have to get to a high level for their 'reward' anyway, then they're going to be craptastic in any other class they choose. Also, I have a hard time *believing* that argument, since that would make the monk or paladin a more powerful class than others...and that would throw the entire CR/EL system outta whack...we'd have entries like CR 4, unless you're party has two or more monks in which case CR 3, since if they're more powerful, they're going to be able to handle harder challenges more easily than other characters.

So, I guess, from my experience:

1 -- Even opening up the mutliclassing won't result in people sacrificing high-level powers for low-level front-loaded powers.
2 -- The front-loaded quality of many classes is being rectified in the revision.
3 -- Having an ability that the DM can't take away doesn't make it more powerful, since DM's shouldn't be making challenges that depend upon stripping the PC's of their powers. In which case, they're as easy to take away as anyone else (New Spell: No Ki Zone!)
4 -- The higher level powers of the class being 'more powerful' than respective powers doesn't seem to be realistic, and the fact that they have to be high level (and thus invest a lot of time into the class) to get the benefit. Also, the current restrictions don't forbid themf rom getting those high-level powers, and then switching to another class anyway.

So, I guess, there seems to be ABSOLUTELY NO mechanical reason to preserve these mutliclassing restrictions. And if there is a flavor reason, then it should be relegated to an optional rule, much like how racial class restrictions are an optional rule (since that's also a flavor consideration).
 

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