D&D 5E (2014) Rethinking Attributes

[wedgeski]

Even 4E, which radically redesigned most of the game, left the Big Six well alone, and with 5E's obviously retro feel, it would have been shocking in the extreme if WotC had made any changes to the core attributes. They are front-and-center in 5E, to be fair.

 

[sidonunspa]

I think the big problem is saves.

Having saves for all stats is a great idea. It just wasn't carried out well. Even having major and minor saves is fine. The problem is that intelligence and charisma saves are far too rare.

Dex - major save, initiative, AC (great design to have heavy armour ignore dex though)
Con - major save, hit points (makes this needed for everyone)
Wis - major save, perception (at least in a party this is not as needed)

In contrast Str, Int and Cha are all minor saves and don't have big passive benefits.

I like the effort but I think the execution is a little lacking.

Int saves are going to get a boost once psionics are in.....

and if your Gm is not calling for a ton of investigation rolls........

 

[ExploderWizard]

I don't really think that's a good enough reason to not iterate on the concepts. Besides, these are mostly additions rather than replacements. (i.e. saying someone has an 18 charisma would still apply)

It sounds like the foundation for a cool game. It just won't be D&D. Let D&D be D&D. There is plenty of room for other games.

 

[Kwalish Kid]

I disagree that using these stats will take the game away too far from D&D.

One could almost argue that changing the order from SIWDCCh changed the game from being D&D!

While I agree that in certain 1st Ed. sources (primarily Greyhawk), there is a strong linking of Int with magic, the proposed ability score changes do not change the mechanic much and they add a significant amount of other fantasy elements. So the game play and story of the game would be changed a little, but much of it would be recognizable D&D play.

I would recommend that wizards still see some sort of bonus for Int, if not be completely dependent on Int. Warlocks are a different matter, but it might be nice if, because they bartered for their abilities, they aren't based on Thaumaturgy either. But these are campaign issues.

 

[KarinsDad]

I don't really think that's a good enough reason to not iterate on the concepts. Besides, these are mostly additions rather than replacements. (i.e. saying someone has an 18 charisma would still apply)

I think iconic attributes is a great reason.

If one wants to play attributes like you discuss, they could play HARP (which distilled the Rolemaster stats down from 10 to 8, mostly merging with the D&D stats). HARP did not fly that well with the Rolemaster crowd, possibly partially due to them messing with the stats.

 

[Sigbjorn_86]

I agree (unfortunately) that D&D won't get rid of the core attributes. Not only are they iconic, but it goes against the 5e ethos of simpler is better. I think what would be more acceotable is reassigning features from attributes.

For example:

-Finesse weapons don't add Dex to damage, only Str (Crossbow don't add stat damage).
- Create a more even split between Perception and Investigation.
- Give some Wisdom saves to Charisma.
- Lower base numbers of skill proficiencies. Grant extras for Int.
- Use Proficiency as the casting bonus stat. Create other bonuses based on Int, Wis, and Cha.

 

[Dausuul]

I agree with everyone who says the Six Stats are never going to change--they are the sacredest of cows. WotC knows better than to mess with them.

But in the event that Mike Mearls went temporarily insane and did decide to modify the stat lineup... your proposal results in increasing the number of stats from six to nine. That's way too many IMO. Six is already pushing the limit of what's reasonable. I would instead focus on rebalancing the stats better, something like this:

Strength: As written.
Dexterity: No longer affects initiative.
Constitution: Eliminate Con mod to hit points beyond 1st level. Your 1st-level hit points are modified by your Con, but after that you just get your class hit die.
Awareness: All-new stat. Insight, Investigation, and Perception are all based on Awareness, and Awareness determines your initiative modifier. Disbelieving illusions is an Awareness save.
Wisdom: Merges Intelligence and Wisdom into a single stat. No longer affects Insight, Investigation, or Perception.
Charisma: As written.

 

[Aandarius]

Hey, this is my first post here,
I have been only reading for a while and English is not my first language, so please excuse me if I make some mistakes

After 5e was released and I looked at the rules, I had basically the same idea as the OP (that's why I decided to register and log in).

The difference is, i felt like the game had a 'strange' granularity. This is, Strength being separated from Constitution (because both abilities are powerful), Intelligence being separated from Wisdom (in order to let wisdom manage perception and saves).

So my idea was: what if I made a game which is basically the same but with only four attributes:
-Vigor (including Strength and Constitution).
-Agility (Dex, speed, aim, etc).
-Intellect (knowledge, reason, perception maybe?).
-Charisma (including the 'willpower' aspect of wisdom).

That seems balanced enough. The granularity would come in proficiencies, which are a core part in 5e. So you can have lots of Vigor, and be tought and resistant, but not very athletic, or vice versa.

I even thought about making 4 core classes, each one focused in both one ability score and one aspect of the game:
-Vigor classes are Fighters, focused on combat. Subclasses being: Barbarian, Warrior, Monk, etc...
-Agility classes are Explorers, focused on exploration and mobility. Subclasses: Rangers, thieves...
-Intellect classes are Mages, focused on magic and utility. Subclasses: Healer, Diviners, Conjurers, Warlocks, Fire Mages...
-Charisma classes are Leaders, focused on social encounters and getting the best of their companions. Subclasses: Noble, priest, warlord, bard...

I was even hesitating to make Int classes more mundane, like Sages. Some are Healers, other Artificers, etc. and make them good at Downtime Tasks. That would make Magic an optional stat that could (or not) be included in your games, with the class of the Mage being optional leaving room for more 'mundane' campaings.

I have some sketch notes, but didn't write anything yet. It's probably too homebrew to be considered D&D, some core aspects of the game change, but I felt it would work.

What do you think?

 

[Henrix]

It is interesting to see this discussion taken up once again, now for this edition.

It has a long tradition - the first time I saw it was for AD&D1 (in Dragon or Possibly White Dwarf), but I have since seen even older articles discussing it for OD&D. Unearthed Arcana tried to implement Comeliness for AD&D1.

The problem with stat bloat is just that, bloat. In the end it gives very little and costs a lot.
When you introduce a new rule you have to ask yourself what difference, in the end, it will make. Is it worth the extra hassle? Your mileage doth vary, naturally.


Why six scores? It sort of seems to be a good compromise - many games have reached about the same conclusion*.


And it has a long tradition - just like other bits and pieces that are often considered silly, but work well in the game, like HP, AC and levels.





* I don't think there are many games with more than six stats in print today. Hero System have a lot, but most of them are just derived from the basic stats.
GURPS has four. FATE none.
In the 80's many games had a slew of stats.

 

[ExploderWizard]

One could almost argue that changing the order from SIWDCCh changed the game from being D&D!

You mean S I W C D CH

DEX & CON swapped places in 1975 after the thief became a class, so all the prime requisite scores would be together.