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Return of the DonkeyHorse!
- Thread starter Zaran
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JohnSnow
Hero
Put me down on the side of a gargantuan "it depends."
A simple price list for mundane items? Nah, I can make those up myself to the extent that they're even relevant.
What would be far more interesting to me would be Campaign expansions that allow for D&D games to deal with things not currently covered in the rules. Some of the best flavorful campaign supplements from previous editions were things like this. I'm thinking of 1e's Survival Guide series or 3e's "environment" and "Heroes of" books. In 2e, they were always setting specific, which I think lessened their appeal.
I can think of maybe five books:
Dungeoneer's Survival Guide (similar to 1e's, but this includes your donkeyhorse, 10' pole, etc.)
Wilderness Survival Guide (similar to the 1e book)
Realms Rules (Birthright without Cerilia - Stronghold, realms, and war rules)
Swashbuckling Adventures (shipbuilding, expanded undersea rules, firearms, and nautical stuff)
City of Intrigue (thieves' guilds, spying, etc.)
Basically, they're campaign supplements, in that they provide a context for further adventures without being full-fledged worlds.
Those I would buy.
A simple price list for mundane items? Nah, I can make those up myself to the extent that they're even relevant.
What would be far more interesting to me would be Campaign expansions that allow for D&D games to deal with things not currently covered in the rules. Some of the best flavorful campaign supplements from previous editions were things like this. I'm thinking of 1e's Survival Guide series or 3e's "environment" and "Heroes of" books. In 2e, they were always setting specific, which I think lessened their appeal.
I can think of maybe five books:
Dungeoneer's Survival Guide (similar to 1e's, but this includes your donkeyhorse, 10' pole, etc.)
Wilderness Survival Guide (similar to the 1e book)
Realms Rules (Birthright without Cerilia - Stronghold, realms, and war rules)
Swashbuckling Adventures (shipbuilding, expanded undersea rules, firearms, and nautical stuff)
City of Intrigue (thieves' guilds, spying, etc.)
Basically, they're campaign supplements, in that they provide a context for further adventures without being full-fledged worlds.
Those I would buy.
Primitive Screwhead
First Post
I agree with JohnSnow.... it really depends. The books he listed have seen use in many of my games.
Something that recently has yet again perked my attention is the lack of 'standard' population centers. I think a book that sketches out a standard farming community, shire, barter town, village, small town, and a city... replete with guidelines on what you can find in the market place, what store-fronts, and what services are available would be worth buying.
With something like that I could reskin and flavour as needed rapidly.
Something that recently has yet again perked my attention is the lack of 'standard' population centers. I think a book that sketches out a standard farming community, shire, barter town, village, small town, and a city... replete with guidelines on what you can find in the market place, what store-fronts, and what services are available would be worth buying.
With something like that I could reskin and flavour as needed rapidly.
Actually, I'm comparing 4Ed to every other RPG I've ever played or owned.
Regardless of system, people are going to snip, prune and even graft things on.
Pick one and go for it- just be consistent throughout the product. If an adjustment must be made for gear in the BBoMI, then the DM can do it. If the adjustment must be made for NOT using the BBoMI, the DM can do it.
After all, that's how things like the Savage Tides, Shackled City and other adventure paths worked.
If 50% of gamers designed PCs like I did- my PCs tend to be Jacks of All Trades- DMs would find themselves adjusting challenges left and right.
No, you should not presume the party has access to Flying magic/psionics/natural abilities. That's too specific.
Yes, I've been in 7th level D&D parties (and higher) without Flying, or with only one PC capable of doing so and no way to aid anyone else.
I've also played in high-level adventures (the lowest level PC was a 15th level Paladin) that presumed but a single way past an obstacle...and since the party didn't have it, we had to sound retreat. The adventure ended.
If you MUST have an obstacle in your adventure that can only be surmounted by something in particular, you should provide some way to obtain that something within the adventure.
No you don't...at least not for piddling stuff like mundane gear. The bonuses - if any- they'd grant are easily accounted for by "winging it."
And even on the major stuff, I don't see future designers presuming that a party will have a Shardmind Monk, a Minotaur Bard, a Gnome Sorcerer and so forth. They just have to assume that the roles will be filled...because 4Ed shackles itself to the concept of balance of all PC races and classes.
Hussar
Legend
Fair enough. But, we're talking about two different things. You're talking about a given DM. I'm talking about game designers.
Actually the AP's presumed all sorts of things that the party would have. They certainly presumed that the players, just as an example, would have Profession Sailor in the Savage Tide AP. Granted, they did provide an NPC who could do it in a pinch for one adventure, but the presumption was certainly there that the PC's would be running the ship, which is used in many of the adventures.
Meh, not so much. Jack of All Trades in D&D usually means their abilities are so low, that any challenge that would challenges a specialist would blow a generalist out of the water. So, unless you mean adjusting down, I don't think it applies.
Without knowing the exact specifics, I cannot comment on your high level adventure, but, presuming a fly spell is a far cry from presuming psionics IMO. While your group may not have access, I don't design for your group. I think designers should design to the middle, which means that most groups likely will have access to common, PHB spells by a reasonable level.
No you don't...at least not for piddling stuff like mundane gear. The bonuses - if any- they'd grant are easily accounted for by "winging it."
And even on the major stuff, I don't see future designers presuming that a party will have a Shardmind Monk, a Minotaur Bard, a Gnome Sorcerer and so forth. They just have to assume that the roles will be filled...because 4Ed shackles itself to the concept of balance of all PC races and classes.
I've yet to see a book of mundane gear that didn't give mechanical bonuses for said gear. Because, if it has no mechanical effect, then you don't need a book for it at all.
However, you're insisting on comparing apples to oranges. If you include something which gives mechanical benefits in a core supplement, then every subsequent publication HAS to presume that those will be used, otherwise, balance goes straight out the window.
In other words, a designer for 3e should presume that a 7th level party will have some magical equipment and access to 3rd level spells. Otherwise, the challenges he puts in the adventure become tissue paper as the well prepared group blows through them.
This is precisely why Paizo Dungeon adventures were so lethal. They presumed that the party was maxed out to a very large degree. Otherwise, they'd be too easy.
Your example proves my point- first of all, they provided an alternative to the PCs having Profession: Sailor. Secondly, a skill can be learned within a level. Third, you can hire someone with the requisite skill. Fourth, many skills allow you to attempt a check untrained.
My point was that if my PC design style were 50% of the gaming community, game designers would be forced to lower their assumptions.
Well, I'm the only one in my group who allows psionics, for one.
As for the high-level spell, it was one that was within the PHB. Though the party (of 9 PCs) was generally of high level, no PC was a single-classed mage, so none of them had access to a 9th level spell. The assumption in the design was that someone would be playing a single classed mage, and would have that as one of his 2 or 3 spells of that level. That's a bad- sorry- 2 bad assumptions that are dependent upon each other. And since there was no NPC of such a level to cast or teach that spell, there was no way to get past that obstacle. And no, nowhere in the adventure did it warn the DM that spell would be needed (until it came up); nowhere was the DM told that the party had to have a Mage of at least 18th level.
Auroras has literally dozens of items that are pure fluff with no mechanics beyond a price and the ability for the player to say "I'm wearing X" or "I'm eating my Z" and "My lab is fully equipped with all manner and sundry of Q" and so forth.
And yet its a book in high demand, even today.
I fail to see how stats for a donkeyhorse, a fishing net, a 10' pole, etc., are going to unbalance a game so much that the same DM some said should "wing it" and make stuff up is going to curl up and die because all of a sudden its in a supplement he doesn't have and he has to "wing it" in the opposite direction. Typically, mundane items provide less than a 10% swing in probabilities, if any (see the aforementioned Aurora's). Methinks thou dost protest too much.
Now who is appleoranging all over the place? We're not talking about feats or magic items with this supplement. We're talking about mundane gear.
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Hussar
Legend
DannyA said:
You brought up spells in the first place.
But, the way I see it, there are two options: First, you have mundane equipment which has mechanical effects, thus creating balancing issues and power creep. We saw this sort of thing all the time in 3e when players would cherry pick bits and pieces from multiple sources to create all sorts of very powerful effects. The more that is added to a system, the more difficult it becomes to manage this.
To the point where, late in 3e, people were very proudly claiming that they played a Core Only campaign and refused to use any supplements at all.
The other option is the mundane equipment has zero mechanical effect. It's 100% flavour. Great, but, do we really need a book of this? Thirty seconds on the Internet will get you as many mundane items as you could possibly want. Since it has no mechanical effect, there are already dozens of books out there for this. Do we need another one?
Just as a point about Aurora's, while it's been a very long time since I read them, I do recall that there were many items which had direct mechanical effects in them. It could easily be that the books are in demand because people want to translate those effects into their game, as much as just the flavour.
May I ask where on the internet you can get the pricing guidelines for a transdimensional flying city of the new gods?
Vyvyan Basterd
Adventurer
That would be a custom job. You could price it out using this book [ame="http://www.amazon.com/Stronghold-Builders-Guidebook-Dungeons-Roleplaying/dp/0786926554"]Stronghold Builder's Guide[/ame].
May I ask in what possible way could a transdimensional flying city ever be considered a "mundane item"?
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