Return of the DonkeyHorse!

[Hussar]

Looks like its time to agree to disagree

.. but just checking; Thieves tools, climbers kits, and other mundane equipment that grant an bonus to skills already exist in the core 4e rules.... they are in the PHB. The Burglars gloves {+1}, Rogue's gloves {+3}, and Guildmaster gloves {+5} exist in the same book. So a trained, skill focused, properly equiped Epic level Rogue can be expected to have at least 15 points spread above thier non-trained, non-equiped peer.

Oh certainly. I think that the items you list are a bad idea. They're a bit of holdover from earlier editions that made it through. IMO, unfortunately.

As Nifft says, having a single resource that tries to do two things at the same time is a very bad idea. Like it or not, 4e uses gold to give PC's more power. Either you have to decouple the gold for power mechanic, or add a new resource to spend for cool.

Actually, you could do that fairly easily. If you go with the non-magic route - standard bonuses from PHB 2 (IIRC) that means that you don't need to buy a better sword or implement to remain competitive. That decouples gold from combat balance and frees up gold for cool. That would be a pretty simple fix. Thus, you could buy castles and whatnot and not gimp your character.

Now, if all you want is a donkey, then, well, I don't think that's going to do too much damage - light horse works pretty well. After all, a donkey IS a light horse. But, if you want a whole subsystem of Gold for Cool, then simply unplug Gold for Power and use the scaling rules from PHB 2.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Personally, I'd kind of like to see a system where someone who buys 10,000 donkeys rather than a magic pokin' stick can fight as effectively...

...like, after buying 10,000 donkeys, they're given a magic pokin' stick by the God of Donkeys or something.

But I'm a bit of a fan of wahoo, sometimes.

 

[Lanefan]

Intentional self-gimping leading to self being gimped is a bug in the system?

System not being flexible enough to handle characters who end up sub-optimized through perfectly valid in-character role-playing choices is a bug in the system.

Lanefan

 

[Zaran]

It's been a week since I started this poll. It's been pretty consistantly 51% For since the beginning. Interesting stuff.

Actually one way to make a mundane item give a small bonus without being as useful as magic would be to make it not stack with the +5 Training bonus. That way those who aren't trained in stealth can benefit slightly when they just have to make a stealth roll or two.

This would fit with the idea that those trained in a skill would already have these sort of things as part of the training.

 

[El Mahdi]

deleted

 

[Garthanos]

System not being flexible enough to handle characters who end up sub-optimized through perfectly valid in-character role-playing choices is a bug in the system.

Lanefan

A game were people couldn't gimp themselves at all....wouldnt be a game. Again not a bug.

 

[Garthanos]

A game were people couldn't gimp themselves at all....wouldnt be a game. Again not a bug.

A game were it was easy to do because it requires uber amounts of system mastery might be not a bug if you like excluding new players.

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

But the entire argument that a WotC Book of Mundane Stuff including nonmagical soft boots (+1 Stealth) would automatically be "core" and thus would lead to the destruction of 4E's delicate balance surely leans heavily toward the absurd.

But nobody has argued in favor of what you're arguing against.

Um...you did...

Shift the goalposts to "item bonuses that don't stack" and I don't see the purpose of a bunch of random stuff that all gives a +1 bonus to the same skill when staying abstract can accomplish the same goal. You can describe the how behind your character's methods through fluff without spending in-game resources or meticulously accounting for bonuses.

So are all of these items mentioned in their relevant skill write ups? Because they all are in the CB and all give bonuses with skills...

Camouflaged Clothing - Dragon Magazine add-on, so no.
Climber's Kit - Yes, mentioned in the Athletics skill specifically.
Crowbar - Dragon Magazine add-on, so no.
Disguise Kit - Dragon Magazine add-on, so no.
Footpads - Dragon Magazine add-on, so no.
Hunter's Kit - Eberron add-on, so no.
Inquisitive's Kit - Eberron add-on, so no.

It doesn't change my opinion that these are mistakes.

A note for all: The original intention was to have these items not provide any sort of functional bonus. At least not a combat/adventuring applicable bonus.

Exactly my point. These exercises in "making neat non-functional stuff" always seems to turn into "how can I cheese more bonuses onto my character."

 

[Nifft]

System not being flexible enough to handle characters who end up sub-optimized through perfectly valid in-character role-playing choices is a bug in the system.

Any system where bad decisions don't matter is also a system where good decisions don't matter.

I much prefer a system where my decisions do matter, so I find your vision distasteful at best.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Imaro]

Perhaps these items could be used to fix the disparity that has arisen in skill bonuses between optimized and un-optimized characters. So perhaps mundane tools, items, etc. only help so much in bringing a skill up dependent upon the skill level of the user. I mean an argument could be made for the trope, that at a certain point you're so good that mundane items (as opposed to magic) have less overall effect on how well you perform a skill. This seems to resonate with certain mythic heroes, whose abilities, and not the items, are what makes them stand apart. Perhaps a bonus for... untrained use (+3), trained use (+2) and focused use (+1) for each item. Yeah the idea needs a little work but I think it could be refined into something useful.