Return of the DonkeyHorse!

[korjik]

I really ought to read the thread before I go off half cocked

 

[korjik]

The thing is, non-magical personal items (as opposed to magic armor or castles) are just never going to cost enough to be relevant to the PCs overall wealth after about 2nd level. If my 6th level PCs want to carry around a crowbar, an axe and a bag of iron spikes as part of their "Dungeon Door Entry Kit" I'm happy for them to do that. I'm also happy to handwave the cost because I see no practical difference between the 3gp such a kit would likely cost and free. At that level, 3gp is essentially the same as free.

I'm not opposed to the PCs wanting and having mundane items, I just don't see any benefit to having a book full of items and costs listed, when the costs essentially amount to "not expensive enough to worry about" for 28 out of the 30 levels the game is designed to cover. That said, I'm not opposed to such a book as long as it is completely self-contained. I WOULD however, be opposed to that kind of information taking up space in a book that had other stuff in it that I did want. I certainly wouldn't want 30-40 pages of that kind of information in a future Adventurer's Vault for example.

You are missing the point. This isnt about a crowbar for a 10th level character, but level appropriate items.

Besides, what about the player who wants to spend 10000gp on jewelry?

 

[korjik]

That's what gold is for. If you're allowed to spend it on things that don't help you in combat, then you're at risk of falling off the adventurer's treadmill of expected gear bonuses.

I feel really sorry for you

And that's cool. But the players shouldn't have to choose between being cool and being effective. They should be allowed to be both.

Thus, a single resource should not be used for both 'cool' and 'effective'.

You are right, they should be allowed to do both. They arent right now. All you can do is be effective. There are alot of players who arent playing D&D just so they can get to the next battle.

That is the whole point of this thread. To allow those who want to do something other than go to the next encounter to do something other than go to the next encounter.

It could be, but 4e tells DMs to give out "treasure parcels" from "wish lists", and to give PCs items which they can use.

But yeah: if the DM gives your Paladin a +4 sword, and you sell it in order to buy a herd of dire donkeyhorses, then you risk making yourself irrelevant in combat.

Cheers, -- N

Since when is a +4 sword gold? This thread very specifically does not mention magic items other than a product to buy. This thread is not about taking away magic items to make players buy castles, or about players doing really stupid things.

 

[Nifft]

I feel really sorry for you

That's uncalled for. I'll show you why.

You are right, they should be allowed to do both. They arent right now. All you can do is be effective. There are alot of players who arent playing D&D just so they can get to the next battle.

Here, watch:

I really fell sorry for you, if your imagination is so limited that you can only let your characters "be cool" by picking from a list in a book.

- - -

See that? That's how pointless fights get started. Let's not go there.

That is the whole point of this thread. To allow those who want to do something other than go to the next encounter to do something other than go to the next encounter.

Since when is a +4 sword gold? This thread very specifically does not mention magic items other than a product to buy. This thread is not about taking away magic items to make players buy castles, or about players doing really stupid things.

1/ You've always been allowed to sell magic items for gold. That's since forever. They list prices in gold because you can buy them in gold and sell them for gold.

2/ One design goal of 4e has been to make good choices easy, by not hiding them in a pile of bad choices. (This is different from 3e which apparently wanted to reward "system mastery" -- and they did this by putting in lots of bad choices.)


If you want a castle, quest for one, and get it in addition to your standard rewards. You should never be forced to choose between being good at combat and being flavorful & interesting. Therefore, you should not be forced to use a single resource to buy "effective" and to buy "cool".

Cheers, -- N

 

[Ktulu]

Yeah, while useful for many, I just make stuff up. I have never had a player ask for information on how to build a ship, castle, etc... in any game I've run in my 11 years of gaming, so I'd probably not get much use out of this sort of book. I'd probably read it, though.. I'm a sucker for minutae.

 

[Ourph]

System not being flexible enough to handle characters who end up sub-optimized through perfectly valid in-character role-playing choices is a bug in the system.

D&D has always been great at handling sub-optimized characters in an optimized group. They die. The player rolls up another PC. Repeat as needed.

It's one of the simplest (and most edition consistent) mechanics in the game.

 

[Ourph]

Besides, what about the player who wants to spend 10000gp on jewelry?

Do you honestly need an entry in a book to allow your PCs to spend 10,000gp on jewelry? The single sentence you typed above holds, realistically, all the information you'd need to adjudicate such an act (i.e. Jewelry, cost: 10,000gp). What additional information could a rulebook possibly provide you in that instance that you would need?

 

[Garthanos]

In more realistic Mideival style real wealth would have little to do with specific cash / or an awesome set of gear... but rather social status and land ownership(not normally purchasable save by fealty and oath). The former was treated as a very portable form of wealth.. like credit... owning a nice set of gear would be sign of the social status and treated as the minimal form of wealth that a non-landed knight might have. He is low end wealthy and will be hosted as such by the nobility... His service using those gadgets will make him personally valuable... making his oaths of service a sought after commodity. Fame ie reputation is the other element in the equation of course, it regulates the value of your service too.

Merchant style wealth = gold is too modern... even if it is what players understand. ;-)

 

[Raven Crowking]

I use a system where DCs are based on the difficulty of the task.

Trying to pry up a floor tile? That's difficult. With a crowbar? Not so difficult.

Trying to pick a lock? That's difficult. Without lockpicks? That's extremely difficult.

How someone goes about a task, and what equipment is available, affects the difficulty level (and therefore DC) of that task. I don't have to know what modifier everything has; I just need to know roughly how difficult the task as described is. Hence, my game uses tools like crowbars, but doesn't require additional rules for tools like crowbars.


RC

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

If you want a castle, quest for one, and get it in addition to your standard rewards. You should never be forced to choose between being good at combat and being flavorful & interesting. Therefore, you should not be forced to use a single resource to buy "effective" and to buy "cool".

I completly agree.. but I also agree with Garthanos and would suggest flipping your recommendation... Instead of characters buying thier effectiveness {magic}, they adventure/quest for it. That leaves gold to be spent on mundane items and 'cool'.. completely divorced from the effectiveness treadmill.

I am working on some rough guidelines for my low-fantasy game that removed gold from the treasure parcels and puts most of the economic system into the bartering/fuedal society framework. Fame and letters of marque matter more than stuff. I figure this will enable me to add more interesting adventuring hooks into the characters world. When I get around to posting it here, I look forward to the constructive discussion I have come to expect from this excellent forum!


Ourph.. I don't need an entry stating "Jewelry: 10,000 gp", but I would like entries like:
- Living expenses, middle class
- Manor house, monthly upkeep
- 25 man militia, monthly upkeep
- Ale, excellent quality, pint
- Journeyman wage, per week
- Items potentially available in an agragarian village
- Items potentially available in a remote town on a trade road

etc.. 'cool' things, things to buy that earn reputation {houses/land}, etc.. Things that I can build into a reasonable, consistant imitation of medevial living and add depth to my campaign world.
Yes, I could do a bunch of research on my own.. but I am lazy!
{ Can also get around to buying the 'Medevial Society: Silk Road'... which I just might do tonight}