• NOW LIVE! Into the Woods--new character species, eerie monsters, and haunting villains to populate the woodlands of your D&D games.

Return of the DonkeyHorse!

Would you buy a book of mundane items full of stuff that would be useless in combat.

  • Yes! I think this would be an excellent source of info for players in my group!

    Votes: 48 39.0%
  • I use info printed elsewhere or before 4e but would buy a 4e DnD version.

    Votes: 8 6.5%
  • No. There is no place for this sort of thing in 4e. The GM should "wing it".

    Votes: 20 16.3%
  • I can see a book like this being useful for others, but I will not buy such a book myself.

    Votes: 47 38.2%

  • Poll closed .
I can see the use of this book for some people but not for the groups I play with. We already have mundane equipment that is just either thought up by the player or the GM as something they can take around that has no bearing on the combat or some occasions out of combat scenarios.

Just mundane equipment for characterization or using said mundane items in some weird plan that is just fun.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Can also get around to buying the 'Medevial Society: Silk Road'... which I just might do tonight
I would also recommend CZ1: Yggsburgh from Troll Lord Games. It's absolutely full of this kind of simulationist detail for life in a medieval town.

I wouldn't expect this kind of thing for 4e, however, since the designers have specifically said that getting away from the "medieval Europe with magic and elves tacked on" feel of earlier campaign settings was one of the basic tenets of their game design for 4e.
 

I completly agree.. but I also agree with Garthanos and would suggest flipping your recommendation... Instead of characters buying thier effectiveness {magic}, they adventure/quest for it. That leaves gold to be spent on mundane items and 'cool'.. completely divorced from the effectiveness treadmill.

I am working on some rough guidelines for my low-fantasy game that removed gold from the treasure parcels and puts most of the economic system into the bartering/fuedal society framework. Fame and letters of marque matter more than stuff. I figure this will enable me to add more interesting adventuring hooks into the characters world. When I get around to posting it here, I look forward to the constructive discussion I have come to expect from this excellent forum! :angel:
That would certainly work, but it would require some modification of the core system.

Right now, these two things are fungible:
- Magic items
- Ritual components

So, you would need to decide how Ritual components work. You might allow magic items to be the only component source: allow the PCs to sacrifice a magic item for 1/5 its price in Residuum, and that's the only way to get Residuum, and all you can do with Residuum is perform rituals.

The second thing to think about are consumable magic items like potions. You probably want to let PCs buy those (with Residuum) if none of them can use the Brew Potion ritual.

Other than those, you just turn magic item sales into a pure barter economy, ensuring that the PCs are always ripped off for 80% of the value of whatever they sell.

Voila, now gold is unrelated to magic items, and you're free to use it for pure flavor stuff.

Cheers, -- N
 

System not being flexible enough to handle characters who end up sub-optimized through perfectly valid in-character role-playing choices is a bug in the system.

Lanefan

This has been touched on a few times, but I wanted to touch it again. In that special way.... err.... never mind...

Anyway.

You bring up an interesting question actually. What is a "perfectly valid in-character role-playing" choice? That's going to vary really, really wildly depending on the group and playstyle. Obviously, for some, buying 10000 gp necklaces is something they think is reasonable for a PC adventurer. For others, that's pretty ridiculous, bordering on straw-man since it's just not going to happen in their group.

The designers have to choose one or the other. Otherwise, you start crossing the streams and get into all sorts of trouble balance-wise. If one of the group uses mundane items for cool, another does it to totally min-max his character, a third does it for both and a fourth completely ignores it entirely, you get an unholy mess of power levels within a single group.

Like I said before, we saw precisely this in 3e. Fifteen bajillion character options spawn the Char-ops board that comb the supplements in order to create precisely this problem.

Which spins it all right back around to, what do you consider to be a perfectly valid in game decision for a PC to make?
 

Um...you did...:confused:

No, I didn't, nor did I shift any goalposts. If you quote me anywhere saying that proposed items should grant bonuses that stack, please do so. Perhaps my memory is faulty. What I remember is this:

Someone thought it reasonable that some equipment grant a minor bonus.

Someone else ridiculously claimed that soft leather boots (+1 Stealth) would break the game system.

You and others started talking about PCs getting +5 bonuses from a variety of equipment items in an effort to refute the notion that PCs getting +5 bonuses would be a gamebreaker.
 

No, I didn't, nor did I shift any goalposts. If you quote me anywhere saying that proposed items should grant bonuses that stack, please do so. Perhaps my memory is faulty. What I remember is this:

Someone thought it reasonable that some equipment grant a minor bonus.

Someone else ridiculously claimed that soft leather boots (+1 Stealth) would break the game system.

You and others started talking about PCs getting +5 bonuses from a variety of equipment items in an effort to refute the notion that PCs getting +5 bonuses would be a gamebreaker.

I find it rather ironic that you would complain that he's misquoting you and then you completely mischaracterize other people's arguments. AFAIK, no one ever claimed that soft leather boots on their own would break the game system.

What was claimed is that when you start allowing for items to give bonuses, it can break the system. It's been seen in every single edition of D&D to date.
 


Assuming that we're just talking about mundane items, I can't say I agree with that.

But that's the problem isn't it? It never is "just" mundane items. You get your +1 for the boots, another +1 for the camo suit, then another +1 for backgrounds, and on and on and on.

All you have to do is read the Char-ops boards for about ten minutes to realize this is where it starts.
 

Obviously, your history in gaming has varied greatly from mine. Most of the guys and gals I game with simply don't bother with that level of powergaming.

After the magical aides start popping up on a regular basis, the mundane tends to fade away. Heck, most players don't even manage to keep an accurate total of their magical bonuses.
 

You bring up an interesting question actually. What is a "perfectly valid in-character role-playing" choice? That's going to vary really, really wildly depending on the group and playstyle. Obviously, for some, buying 10000 gp necklaces is something they think is reasonable for a PC adventurer. For others, that's pretty ridiculous, bordering on straw-man since it's just not going to happen in their group.

The designers have to choose one or the other. Otherwise, you start crossing the streams and get into all sorts of trouble balance-wise. If one of the group uses mundane items for cool, another does it to totally min-max his character, a third does it for both and a fourth completely ignores it entirely, you get an unholy mess of power levels within a single group.
What I'm getting at is that it shouldn't make that much of a difference, but it does in newer editions because the math has become so fine-tuned. And that's a bug.

If I've got 10K g.p. to burn and I spend it on a manor house, where my fellow party member spends her 10K on a fancy sword, then OK maybe she's going to hit a bit more often than I do and hurt things a bit more when she does, but so what? The system ought to be able to handle that. But I've a germ of a theory why it doesn't so well any more.

There are too many levels.

In something like 0-1-2e, where you realistically only had about a 10-level range in the game both for PCs and monsters, the math was non-granular enough to be quite forgiving around the edges. A fully-twinked party could go into the same module as an under-optimized bunch of clods, and both could have fun and have a chance at survival.

But in 3e with a 1-20 spread and open-ended monsters, and 4e with a 1-30 spread, the game's math is forcing the characters to function within a narrower and narrower "window" of power level relative to what they're facing; and because of that every extra bonus makes more of a difference. Couple that with the idea of mundane items giving bonuses (I don't agree with this; I'd go the other way and suggest lack of suitable mundane items for the job gives penalties) and the fluff-laden donkeyhorse turns into a mechanical headache.
Like I said before, we saw precisely this in 3e. Fifteen bajillion character options spawn the Char-ops board that comb the supplements in order to create precisely this problem.
And here I think we agree. Char-ops boards are the definition of Gaming Evil, as far as I'm concerned; and while I realize some people enjoy that sort of thing that same sort of people are the sort of people who'll be playing at tables other than mine. :)

In all of this I'm not in the least suggesting that mundane items should give bonuses. Lack of them should give penalties (you'll be at -5 if you're only using your bare hands to open that chest); and either way their existence needs to be tracked. And, if you're bringing a toolkit into the dungeon, you'll probably need a donkeyhorse to carry it, thus we're right back where we started: where's my freakin' mule!

And yes, some will say that's too much bookkeeping; but really: how much effort is it to once every dozen sessions or so write a quick list on your character sheet of the mundane gear you're carrying?
Which spins it all right back around to, what do you consider to be a perfectly valid in game decision for a PC to make?
Pretty much anything that makes sense for the character, in character.

One other variable that just occurred to me that probably weighs quite heavily on this discussion in terms of 4e: as a system it seems to be very frugal with treasure compared to what has gone before. And if you're short of cash, you're probably going to want to spend what you have on adventuring necessities first. In older editions, in my experience it's quite possible to have cash left over once you've loaded up with magical field gear, and thus spending it on castles and jewelry wasn't such a big deal. That, and it was much harder to go and buy/build what you wanted.

Lan-"I hope this makes more sense to you than it does to me"-efan
 

Into the Woods

Remove ads

Top