D&D 5E Return to White Plume Mountain?

[Nebulous]

(Major Spoilers)

Has anyone run the original (I'm sure, yes) but then tried to run the Return version of it later? How do they differ the most? I'm sure the presence of the 4 Kerapti and the K-imprints are the biggest change, but does the inside of the mountain cover the same tricks and traps and then add new ones?

I'm asking partly because I'm layering Return to White Plume Mt. over Lost Mine of Phandelver and planting as many seeds as I think I'll need to get the party invested. One player is already "cursed" with an imprint, but their first instinct is to travel to a major city to have the curse removed. And I don't want to railroad them into a path just so they follow the predetermined adventure. The best thing to do would let them think they're making the correct, most logical decision to help themselves while it's the decision I want them to make anyway.

Lastly...it's just an odd adventure. The K-imprint stuff is overly complicated, so regardless I'm going to have to tone it down and tweak it just for my own sake, much less trying to explain it to the players. But I still feel like I'm "forcing" them into a dungeon crawl just to get the curse removed, and something about it doesn't feel right. I'm not sure what.

If everything keeps going as planned though it looks like our party of 4 PCs is going to have a whole platoon of 1st level knights going with them, as well as a handful of NPCs, so they won't be alone, it will literally be an assault on the False Kerapti which could be a very, very interesting series of sessions. I'm reminded of earlier editions where you have henchman moving forward with 10' poles to check for traps while the PCs hang back and be glad it's not them at the forefront....

Regardless, I still might give them an out. If they, the players, don't seem keen on delving into the Underdark to remove the curse, maybe I should relocate everything to the surface(?) but I've already done a good bit of work integrating the plot with RtWPM. Even if the curse on a player was not involved, a big bad beholder wants Frostrazor, Blackrazor, Whelm and Wave for itself, along with the Forge of Spells, and if it had all that stuff it would just be a megalomaniacal menace to the entire region, and there are already NPCs set up that definitely want to stop that from happening.

 

[Phlar]

This is way too late but I couldn't help myself:

Return to... is for me the better module (I read both and played only Return). The original module is just a weird funhouse dungeon. Some similar weird puzzles appear in Return. However, Return adds a more interesting (and life-threatening) hook, a more realistic environment, and multiple factions (all evil) that can be joined and/or fought. It also has a great, epic final act which is a lot more satisfying compared to the anticlimax in the original. In short: Return is the richer experience.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Yeah, the original isn't a great dungeon, which makes sense, since it wasn't supposed to be a coherent dungeon, but just a bunch of sample rooms to get a TSR job that they then published anyway.

 

[billd91]

White Plume Mountain is a GREAT dungeon - it's just a funhouse dungeon which means it largely owns the fact that it's an unrealistic environment while most D&D megadungeons just kind of wave that away. It's well worth playing.

Return to White Plume Mountain is a great adaptation of the same environment after being plundered 25-odd years previously. Also well worth playing since it takes the funhouse and tries to ground it in a semi-plausible (for D&D) "where is it now" kind of frame. I wouldn't worry about forcing them into a dungeon crawl to remove a curse - it's not that different from being given a quest in return for an important service. And fantasy literature/stores thrive on that dynamic. As long as someone can make the connection between the K-imprint and White Plume Mountain as a likely location to investigate anything Keraptis-related, you're off to the races.

 

[Clint_L]

The original was a great dungeon for its time, when narrative cohesion was not exactly a priority in dungeon design. And Return is a fun dungeon for its time, with just enough narrative cohesion to kind of sort of make sense. If you don't look too hard.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Even for a funhouse dungeon of its time, White Plume Mountain is basically one or two good rooms (the wooden platforms above the lava most especially) and a super-cool weapon (Blackrazor outshines Whelm and Wave to a huge degree).

Compare to Castle Amber, which is also a funhouse dungeon, but full of neat set pieces, a rationale that makes it kind of hang together, and lots and lots to do. Tomb of Horrors is also a funhouse and is justifiably a classic, with nearly every room iconic to this day. Expedition to the Barrier Peaks is also technically a funhouse dungeon, but with a great overall theme and, again, a ton of iconic encounters.

That doesn't mean White Plume Mountain isn't fun, but it's fun in the way a Twinkie is fun. It's more fun in theory than in practice, has a moment or two of being worth your time, and then becomes something that you realize there were probably better choices you could have made, even when it comes to junk food funhouse dungeons.

 

[el-remmen]

I run White Plume Mountain straight (I mean, not as a joke, not that I make no changes) and justify the "funhouse" aspect by changing the madman behind it from Keraptis to Jocose, an ancient lich-bard who is a mix of Arcade and Madcap from Marvel Comics with a dash of the Riddler and the Joker from DC thrown in. You think life is absurd? Undeath is absurder! And an absurd dungeon with unfair rules where cocky adventurers are tempted to risk their souls to acquire legendary weapons and other artifacts that will upset society and cause upheaval and chaos even if they succeed? Sign me up!

 

[Paul Farquhar]

The main lesson to take from White Plume Mountain is that not everything has to make sense. And frankly, even if the DM has come up with some elaborate justification, it's unlikely that the players will notice.

And yes, I've run WPM twice - once in the early 1980s and once in the late 2010s. But I have never run Return.

 

[Phlar]

Points well taken. But I agree with Whizbang: reading through WPM, quite a lot of those 'fun' rooms seemed to me to fall flat a bit. Return to.... 'fixes' this by adding a layer of faction play over the funhouse, and a mystery to solve.

But now I'm intrigued by Castle Amber, never read it.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Castle Amber is awesomely good.