[Rev] Will they remove the toad?

[2WS-Steve]

I'd imagine that the toad benefit will switch over to the d20 modern version, a flat +3 hit points. We can probably see quite a bit of 3.1 in d20 Modern.

 

[Barendd Nobeard]

take a level of barbarian before you go fighter, show your dwarven rage and hey you get a 30' move as well. The group I run almost insisted that the drawf take a level of barb so he'd stop slowing down the group.

But you lose your barbarian fast movement if you wear heavy armor or carry a heavy load. I play a dwarf: "I full run for 45'!!!"

 

[Felon]

I'd imagine that the toad benefit will switch over to the d20 modern version, a flat +3 hit points. We can probably see quite a bit of 3.1 in d20 Modern.

I agree, and that implies revised versions of Shield and Haste (as can also be found in D2M). I'm liking that!

 

[Henry]

OK, so when you're not engaged in a dungeoncrawl or some other dangerous activity, the toad comes out to eat and play. A sort of medieval gigapet.

OTOH, I assume that it's pretty easy to convince the toad that the inside of your pocket is the best place for them to be when bad things start to go down.

Is anyone contending that this de-munchkinizes the toad? If so, please explain how.

Because I do not see how a very tentative +2 CON vastly outweighs the benefits of flight, alertness, etc. - especially when a wizard is not high on hit points to begin with, and is quickly outstripped by the benefits of the other familiars. (Lucius is spot on with the other familiar's abilities being underutilized by a toad.)

The definition to me of an overpowered ability or feat is something that EVERYONE wants to take, because its benefits far outweight its drawbacks to undergo what it takes to get it. I don't see scores of PC's taking a single level of wizard just to get a toad familiar. Heck, in my personal campaign, I don't see one wizard taking a toad. So far, the only familiars I have seen in my personal campaigns have been

A Ferret
A Raven
A Pseudodragon (house ruled one).

It adds an attractive ability to an otherwise unattractive option. Now, if, say, Hawks or Owls gave a +2 CON, I might have issue, because they have other obvious benefits. But a TOAD? If he doesn't get something very beneficial, he might as well be removed totally, because likely the only people willing to pick him will be someone very dedicated to the traditional wizardly image.

Honestly, how many people in your personal campaigns are picking toads as familiars? We've heard from two people so far, and I would be somewhat surprised to find that most of the people in their respective groups are doing the same.

 

[coyote6]

Honestly, how many people in your personal campaigns are picking toads as familiars? We've heard from two people so far, and I would be somewhat surprised to find that most of the people in their respective groups are doing the same.

Let's see, familiars in our campaigns, as best I recall:

1 toad (dwarven sorcerer, FWIW)
3 weasels
1 owl
1 monkey
1 cat

We're starting a new campaign Saturday; I was going to play a halfling necromancer, who would've had either a toad or a raven familiar. But another player wanted to try a conjurer*, and I don't know what he's taking for his familiar.

*(And later decided to just make a general wizard, instead. Doh)

Of course, my group has underused their familiars; nobody uses them to scout or for much of anything really. And, unfortunately, the one time one wizard did, he sent his weasel to scout a drop-you-into-lava pit trap.

 

[Vocenoctum]

I've been on both sides;
as a DM, I had a player that had a dwarven wizard that chose Toad and simply forgot about him after that. I should have just ruled the toad asphyxiated in his back pack or something...

My (now most likely defunct, since the campaign is most likly gone) Black Mage (gnome conjurer) chose a Toad. The DM allowed the stuff from Spells and Spellcraft.

Tsathogua has always been useful to me, simply as someone to complain about the other players to.

I performed a Dark Ritual (IC) to try to give him more power, instead he was now Cute and could Glow. The next attempt at a Dark Ritual netted him the See Invisibility I was after, but now he has wings and can speak common!

He flies around, glowing and chatting with Fighter all the time. I've even tried to use him to get an extra share when people want to pay us per person

A familiar is always going to be bonuses for nothing if you simply forget him in a pocket. It's up to the DM to regulate them. In my game, I simply had other things to keep track of, and ignored the familiar of the dwarf wizard.

The more irritating one was actually a former player that had a snake familiar, and would send him ahead to scout, and use him as an extra listen/ spot roll. IMO, scouting familiar's are a huge liability.

 

[Felon]

Because I do not see how a very tentative +2 CON vastly outweighs the benefits of flight, alertness, etc. - especially when a wizard is not high on hit points to begin with, and is quickly outstripped by the benefits of the other familiars. (Lucius is spot on with the other familiar's abilities being underutilized by a toad.)

Given the choice between an ability that makes one tougher and an ability that makes one more perceptive the powergaming choice is to become tougher. A wizard/sorcerer needs hit points; they typically don't to be good at reconoitering. Let the classes who actually have a talent for scouting do that.

The definition to me of an overpowered ability or feat is something that EVERYONE wants to take.

But EVERYONE isn't a powergamer. Someone might choose a familiar with a weak ability for reasons of personal taste. Players shouldn't have to choose the familiar they like over a familiar that offers the most puissant bonuses. All the familiars should offer abilities that whet the appetite.

And at any rate, "overpowered" should be defined by far less empirical methods than just looking at one's own group of gamers and deeming their choices to be representative of what *everyone* does. Some groups are more ahead of the munchkin curve than others

Honestly, how many people in your personal campaigns are picking toads as familiars? We've heard from two people so far, and I would be somewhat surprised to find that most of the people in their respective groups are doing the same.

Well, most folks in my group find 3e arcane spellcasters on the whole to be unappealing. 3e divine spellcasters have so darn many advantages over them (hit points, BAP, Fort save, weapon/armor proficiency, no arcane spell failure rate, learn all spells automatically, all-encompassing spell list, turn undead, domain powers, shapeshifiting, etc.), with not so much to tip the scales back up for the arcane casters. Familiars certainly don't cut it. IMHO, some folks have it backwards. Don't nerf the toad, but rather give some love to all of the other familiars.

But to answer your question, the handful of wizards and sorcerers that my group has seen over the last few years have for the most part passed on familiars altoghter. There's too much to lose when they die, and not so much to gain while they live. But the three that did have familiars picked the toad. Seemed like a no-brainer to them.

 

[jgbrowning]

Plus if you lick them, you can get high.

That's the real reason so many "wizards" and "sorcerors" have them around...

joe b.

 

[ConcreteBuddha]

Actually, the Munchkin's familiar of choice is a toad in a can.

A familiar carrier from the T&B effectively makes your familiar an item with 10 hardness and 15 hps. (Can't be targetted due to total cover.)
.
.
.
Although I prefer a formian worker POed into a janni (then they can effectively use real armor and equipment, plus the familiar buffs in the T&B.)

 

[Shard O'Glase]

But you lose your barbarian fast movement if you wear heavy armor or carry a heavy load. I play a dwarf: "I full run for 45'!!!"

Well Duh that's what's mithral full plate is for.

And I can hang with a breastplate until then.