Reverse Urban Arcana... OR: The Blood War just got a whole lot worse

[Asmor]

So, I'm running a Planescape game soon (gestalt, incidentally, but that's besides the point), and I'm thinking at some point I'm gonna have a technologically advanced world become accessible. The basic story is that a demon discovers that the powers (gods) have one great fear-- humanity. The demon doesn't know why, except that somehow humanity somehow has a tendency to become far too powerful, and so the gods shut any material plane off from the rest of the multiverse whenever they feel it's starting to advance too far technologically. As a result magic and magical creatures die out and they become, well, like us. So the demon does some demonic things, good story potential there, and brings back a long forgotten world to get access to whatever weapons the humans may have come up with.

So basically we're gonna end up with the Blood War being fought with nukes, chemical weapons and whatever else the infernal combatants can get their scaly claws on.

What are some interesting ideas you can think of that would come about from this influx of technology into a magical world? It's common enough for a setting to introduce magic to a technologically oriented culture, but the reverse is surprisingly uncommon. If it helps, I'm primarily interested in Sigil, journeys to other planes will really be more like sidetrips.

 

[fnork de sporg]

Inside of a week, or maybe much less, every bit of every single fiendish plane will have been scorched by magically amplified flying teleporting planeshifting invisible living nuclear bombs. Everything fiendish will now be highly radioactive and either immune to radiation or dead. I hope the magically amplified flying teleporting planeshifting invisible living nuclear bombs don't find some wierd way of reproducing.

 

[Humanophile]

First, it wouldn't be as bad as you might think. Your average fiend is immune to poison, so biological attacks mean absolutely nil to it. Chemical attacks might be useful, but remember that we register the effects of chemical weapons on people who are - at best - low-level warriors. Most chemical weapons should be akin to Cloudkill, and Cloudkill clearly hasn't utterly upheaved the Blood War. I'd worry more about the effects of fiends trafficking these things for other favors than the effects of such items themselves.

Nukes should be a special tricky case of themselves. A case could be made for none of the proper substances naturally occurring in the outer planes, which means that nukes would have to be made on the prime (a prime, anyways), and shipped out. We'd also have to ask if any fiends have the ability to make one; just the math behind making a good nuke can be pretty complex, and even if I had all the schematics, I'd need precision machines which themselves are a tad beyond the technology of your average D&D world. So while a few nukes might be stolen by fiendish interlopers in the time between the fiends figuring out what they want and where to get it, and the Forces of Good finding these unlocked primes and either re-locking them or teaching the natives magical defense techniques, we're not talking massive stockpiles on either side. Defenses either side of the Blood War already have against teleport-raids should prevent dropping a nuke in the middle of sensitive areas, a good many outsiders (including all Bateezu) are immune to fire, and one could legitimately question whether outsiders have those twisty-ladder-thingies that get so knocked out of shape by background radiation in the first place. So while the chance of a big f'ing blast would be a nice scene, don't expect much fallout outside the original blast radius, and realize that these things are akin to artifacts, not common weapons. (Unless the fiends manage to subvert a prime to their own ends, which would be nastiness enough for its own share of adventures.)

Honestly, I'm more worried what incognito fiends could do with plain old guns. Kalishnikovs are common enough on earth, and if you want to see real evil, put one in the hands of a ten-year-old conscripted mercenary. DR penetrating bullets shouldn't be that hard to manufacture, and the damage that can be done by a "mere human" to a fiendish foot-soldier can be severe indeed. Considering their ease of use, I see shanghaied mortals - children especially if you want nastiness - being trained quickly, having an AMF slapped on them, and sent out for war-movie goodness. But while this is an interesting twist to things, mature-audience warnings need to be slapped all over this idea.

 

[iceifur]

Guns and radios, my friend. Guns and radios.

-B-

 

[fnork de sporg]

Nukes should be a special tricky case of themselves. A case could be made for none of the proper substances naturally occurring in the outer planes, which means that nukes would have to be made on the prime (a prime, anyways), and shipped out. We'd also have to ask if any fiends have the ability to make one; just the math behind making a good nuke can be pretty complex, and even if I had all the schematics, I'd need precision machines which themselves are a tad beyond the technology of your average D&D world. So while a few nukes might be stolen by fiendish interlopers in the time between the fiends figuring out what they want and where to get it, and the Forces of Good finding these unlocked primes and either re-locking them or teaching the natives magical defense techniques, we're not talking massive stockpiles on either side. . (Unless the fiends manage to subvert a prime to their own ends, which would be nastiness enough for its own share of adventures.)

Provided the Forces of Good don't show up and this is really a previously undiscovered low or no magic prime with a high tech level then I would give it a few days at most before the whole planet is secretly being run by fiends and their human lackeys.

 

[Kax Tuglebend]

Of course, who is to say Nukes would even WORK on the outer planes.. admitedly i havent read any planescape stuff in a while (or even the Manual of the Planes) but if i recall correctly Gunpowder doesnt necissarily work on every plane.. so theres no reason the Nukes would work everywhere (they might work on one layer of the Abyss but not another..)

btw, are you quite sure about Immunity to Poison nullifying Biological Weapons Humanophile?

 

[Asmor]

Nukes should be a special tricky case of themselves. A case could be made for none of the proper substances naturally occurring in the outer planes, which means that nukes would have to be made on the prime (a prime, anyways), and shipped out. We'd also have to ask if any fiends have the ability to make one; just the math behind making a good nuke can be pretty complex, and even if I had all the schematics, I'd need precision machines which themselves are a tad beyond the technology of your average D&D world. So while a few nukes might be stolen by fiendish interlopers in the time between the fiends figuring out what they want and where to get it, and the Forces of Good finding these unlocked primes and either re-locking them or teaching the natives magical defense techniques, we're not talking massive stockpiles on either side. Defenses either side of the Blood War already have against teleport-raids should prevent dropping a nuke in the middle of sensitive areas, a good many outsiders (including all Bateezu) are immune to fire, and one could legitimately question whether outsiders have those twisty-ladder-thingies that get so knocked out of shape by background radiation in the first place. So while the chance of a big f'ing blast would be a nice scene, don't expect much fallout outside the original blast radius, and realize that these things are akin to artifacts, not common weapons. (Unless the fiends manage to subvert a prime to their own ends, which would be nastiness enough for its own share of adventures.)

If you're not worried about safety and accurate delivery, I imagine a nuke would be pretty damn easy to make, actually. They're not especially complicated. Hell, you can get the schematics online. The only thing stopping anyone random person from making them is acquiring the payload. And the whole instant incineration thing might not phase a devil too much, but bombs also have a little bit of a kick to 'em.

Everything fiendish will now be highly radioactive and either immune to radiation or dead.

I like that idea... Time to whip up a mutant template!

 

[DreadPirateMurphy]

WMD = epic level spells

Check out the spells in the Epic Level Handbook. These are basically magical WMD.

Bioweapons would be neutralized by immunity to disease, or a cure disease spell.

Chemical weapons should have minimal effect on beasties immune to poison, although there may be some difference between nerve agents and irritants.

Nuclear weapons cause thermal, shock, and radiation damage at point of impact. Fiends would be immune to thermal. Shock would probably be subject to DR. Radiation would be harder to adjudicate. Fallout and other radioactive particles could be treated as a poison, or you could rule that magic resistance applies to radiation.

Actually, it may not make that much of a difference. You might want to check out the Dragonstar line from Fantasy Flight Games. Another good resource is the GURPS Technomancer book. Magic can hold up to tech pretty well. Non-magical bullets are subject to DR. Radios won't have so much of an effect because many fiends are already telepathic. Modern medicine is still MUCH slower than curative magic.

Mixing the two might be devestating. Picture a .50 HMG with holy ammunition guarding a key pass, or a nuclear weapon enhanced so that it does acid, cold, and electric damage in proportion to the thermal damage.

 

[Tessarael]

Nukes. Radiation. Mutation. Mutant demons.
Use some Gamma World rules.

Enough said.

 

[ruleslawyer]

Humanophile did an excellent analysis, and I think this is the one to run with! As to nukes, I'd have to agree that the effects on fiends would be highly unpredictable. No doubt the actual blast would discorporate those who were right within the crater, but then again, how do we differ between the heat caused by nuclear fission and the heat of fire, to which fiends are immune? (Maybe the key here is to set "immunity" equal to resistance 200 or so, and assume that nukes deal damage in the thousands?) Certainly, I don't see how to map radiation effects onto fiends' unique biology; the effects could just serve to make them stronger, given that they seem to thrive on layers that include acidic fogs, toxic swamps, and burning gases.

Personally, I'd be really concerned with what happens when beings that can change their shape, read and control minds, teleport, and create objects (real and illusory) out of thin air arrive in a world equivalent to ours. No one would believe that they were real even in the presence of credible eyewitnesses, meaning that they would have carte blanche to move around undetected and perform all sorts of foul deeds. A simple mass charm spell, and the RNC and press corps are holding you up to be their next presidential candidate. While charms don't convey well across TV cameras, powerful fiends have extraordinarily high Charismas and high, universally-applicable (if they work on multiple planes, they darn sure work in the 21st-century USA) social skills. Moreover, being able to charm interviewers into softballing you would be child's play.

Of course, a dumber fiend who happened to be the first to discover the plane would mess things up, but any coordinated effort (one by the baatezu/devil side of the Blood War), for instance, would ensure that only the smartest, most charming, and devious fiends were used to scout Earth. Within a matter of weeks or months (and the fiends have nothing but time), the place could become a slave world.