[Review] Dynasties and Demagogues (...and an informal poll)

[KDLadage]

I have written a review of the book Dynasties and Demagogues, and would like to discuss it a bit. This is a book from Atlas Games in the Penumbra line written by Chris Aylott (owner of the Space Crime Continuum book store). Edit: my original posting of this thread was a little misleading, so I have updated the questions and such below to better suit what I am trying to say.

Chris recently put out a call for people that wanted to volunteer to review the book (over on the Pyramid message boards); those that were selected, would get a free review copy. I answered the call; I got selected; and I have to say this was by far the best deal I have ever made in the RPG world. The link above will take you to my review of the book here at ENWorld. I highly recommend reading the review and buying the book.

I post this in order to hold a bit of informal poll:

1. Have you ever wanted to run/play in a truly political game in D&D, but felt that the rules did not support that style of play very well? By this, I am not meaning to say that the rules cannot, but (as Psion states below), the D&D archetypes are not really slanted in a way to handle such adventures -- ones where trying to control Parlement long enough to stave off a vote, or trying to convince the corrupt legeslature to open up the water rights for a nearby (forign) village... this sort of thing.
   
2. If you answered YES to #1, would you run/play in a highly political game if the rules were there to handle it?

Obviously, my answer to both of these (rather leading) questions is YES. However, I will admit that I have managed to run some very political games before these rules were introduced. The rules that Chris brings to the table are not so much required as they are very well tailored to this form of play, while remaining applicable to nearly any style of play. In political games, things are a bit different. XP has to be fudged a bit if you want to keep using the CR-style advancement tables. It's tough to figure out the XP value of of a political encounter. In the past, and currently, political games represent some of my favorite campaigns over the years.

I also write this post for another reason -- There are a lot of definitions of 'political campaign' I am sure. So, before you run out to buy this book, I am more than willing to answer any questions you might have about it -- a sort of what it is, and what it is not if you will. I have sent an email off to Chris Aylott, and I am sure he would be willing to dive in at some point and answer any questions you have about his work as well.



Edit: cleared up a few things.

 

[Psion]

(1) Have you ever wanted to run/play in a truely political game in D&D, but felt that the rules did not support that style of play very well?

I want to (and do) run political games, but fail to see how the rules don't support it. The skills system is robust and I am not fixated on drama or personality mechanics (and really, find that they can be intrusive). The character archetypes are not slanted towards it. However, I find that a healthy code duello and adding the courtier character class (from Rokugan or Swashbuclking Adventures) shapes that right up.

My answer is YES to (1), however, I have ran and played in them despite this. XP has to be fudged a bit (as it is tough to figure out the XP value of of a political encounter).

Since I already use the variant XP rules in the DMG vice the CR system, this is a non-issue for me.

 

[KDLadage]

I want to (and do) run political games, but fail to see how the rules don't support it. The skills system is robust and I am not fixated on drama or personality mechanics (and really, find that they can be intrusive). The character archetypes are not slanted towards it. However, I find that a healthy code duello and adding the courtier character class (from Rokugan or Swashbuclking Adventures) shapes that right up.

True -- the rules can handle it (just as a rules light system could), but as you state, the archetypes are not really slanted in that direction.

The book offers a few alternatives (one happens to be the personality rules) but the implementation here I found to be non-intrusive. For example, the system allows you to apply a single personality archetype to the character (much as class and alignment apply archetypes to the character in different ways) that encourages roleplaying within that archetype. In fact, reading through the section makes it obvious that any of a billion or so other archetypes woud be rather easy to define. Additionally, it seems obvious while reading them that a single personality archetype takes on a different flavor when applied to the various alignments and classes...

The rules simply allow you to gain some slight advantage in the game via the use of the archetype in your roleplaying. It does not demand it, nor does it penalize you for not following it. Unlike games like GURPS, the archetypes cannot (as far as I can see) be abused.

The rules are written such that if you want to use the rules you can and you will gain significantly from their use, if you do not want to use them you can ignore them without losing a whole lot from the baseline play of the game.

In fact, this section and the section on debates and elections were my favorite within the book.

Since I already use the variant XP rules in the DMG vice the CR system, this is a non-issue for me.

This is true -- the individual encounters may not be an issue thanks to the variant XP system. However, as the book explains, things move at a more leisurely pace in political games. Thus, it has some advice on how to ensure that characters are advancing at a 'proper' rate (for your gaming style). One of the mechanisms for achieving this goal is within the personality rules (the action points those rules generate can be traded for additional experience).

The short of it is this: If you are running and enjoying political games already, you probably do not need this book. But even if you do not need it, it is a treasure trove of good ideas and campaign starting (and sustaining) adventures.

 

[Psion]

The short of it is this: If you are running and enjoying political games already, you probably do not need this book. But even if you do not need it, it is a treasure trove of good ideas and campaign starting (and sustaining) adventures.

I already have it on order... so I'll soon be able to judge for myself. I was more responding to your comments that the system doesn't really support it as is.

 

[KDLadage]

I already have it on order... so I'll soon be able to judge for myself. I was more responding to your comments that the system doesn't really support it as is.

Sure. Fair enough.

BTW: Thanks for fixing the link (I would have fixed it myself, but I cannot fix it from work).

 

[KDLadage]

update...

Updated the above questions to better reflect what I am looking for...

 

[Psion]

Re: update...

Well, I got this last night. Only skimmed it so far, but so far it looks pretty decent. I was worried that it wouldn't dovetail too neatly with the existing setting, but it does seem to.

 

[tanilen]

Well, my answer to both questions is also yes. I have always felt that social interactions were given short shrift in the game, but I am sure a lot of that is due to catering to what appeals to a majority of the customers.

As I get older, I personally find less joy in running the mega-combat spectaculars than I do in finding clever ways to manipulate npcs into doing what I want. But with the standard rules, while my buddy and his 10th level barbarian can take center stage in the game session during the 2 hour combat encounter as he muscles his way heroically through hordes of ogres, when its my bard's turn to use his special skills in a social setting, the action is often resolved in a single roll of the dice, and it either worked, or it did not. I try to stretch that out as much as I can with role playing out how my bard is sweet talking the npc, but I can only take that so far.

With the debate and vote-gathering rules, I can finally let my bard or courtier characters really shine. And reading through them, I think they are easily adaptable to many other social settings that involve manipulation or persuasion. It does not take long to derive the political defense and political points for a character, and from there, the bard could use the various diplomacy and bluff based maneuvers to seduce the baron's wife while she could use any of the maneuvers herself to either resist him, threaten him away, or even counter seduce him, depending on her own agenda.

Anyway, I love the book and I look forward to Crimes and Punishment and any other books from Atlas that expand the scope of the game beyond combat.

 

[Ron]

I've run political campaigns since ADD 1st edition. It doesn't matters if the stereotypes represented by D&D classes aren't designed with political campaigns in mind. Politics is a natural part of human societies and therefore everyone, including D&D stereotypes, automatically fits in such campaigns.

Still, I can imagine at least two rules that could be introduced to an improved political campaign. Some sort of fame/reputation rule would be good, although this is easily handled by the DM without any additional rule and a new way to give xp based in goals instead of slaughter. Although players feel rewarded in achieving their political objectives, they will start complaining if their characters aren't rewarded somehow.

Political campaigns are a very nice way to move from combat oriented adventures and they have a distinct story arc that, if not usually epic, take players to a new degree of involvement with the campaign. D&D rules, or any other rpg rules btw, are sufficient to play such campaigns, although there is room for some improvement.

Edited to add the text, which was completely absent originally.

 

[Piratecat]

I am REALLY looking forward to this. It took me almost 15 years of gaming before I really felt competent to run a well thought out, realistic (and fun!) political campaign. Anything that can shorten that cycle is okay with me.