Review of extended scenes in Two Towers (spoilers)
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jdavis
First Post
Fixed every problem, answered every question and turned a movie I didn't care for into a movie I loved, not a bad days work for Peter Jackson. The best part for me though was that I had a $15 replay rewards certificate so the movie only cost me $15 (so I bought the Aquateen Hunger Force DVD too). It was all a big win situation for me.Piratecat said:
theburningman
First Post
Has anybody watched the "From Book to Script" documentary in the appendices yet? PJ and Co. talk about why they found it necessary to make the changes they did in TTT. The one that I found the most interesting was why they changed Faramir so much.
According to them, if Faramir just shrugged off the influence of the ring (as I believe he did in the book), it kills the dramatic tension that they have spent about five hours of film building. That got me to thinking that the changes in Faramir's character were very well done. If I was a Middle-Earth novice, and the events in the film followed those in the book, I might wonder why on Earth you wouldn't give the ring to Faramir, since he apparently can't be swayed by its power.
A similar question was raised in a fantasy literature course I took at the University of Georgia 10 years (best class ever, by the way). One of the students asked why they didn't just give the ring to Sam, since when he does get it for a short time, he shrugs off its power. Another answered that Sam has to be there for Frodo, that if Tolkien had given the ring to Sam and it had affected him, Frodo would not have been able to resist it as effectively if it fell to him.
I accepted this explanation, but now I'm really wondering what reason there could be not to give the ring to Faramir. Could someone who has read the book more recently throw out some ideas?
(The EE improved upon TTT in every way, by the way. I wasn't completely satisfied with the theatrical release, but now it is a worthy companion to FotR. Even the silly things, like Eowyn's soup and the axe in the nervous system, were so humorous that I can't complain about them.)
According to them, if Faramir just shrugged off the influence of the ring (as I believe he did in the book), it kills the dramatic tension that they have spent about five hours of film building. That got me to thinking that the changes in Faramir's character were very well done. If I was a Middle-Earth novice, and the events in the film followed those in the book, I might wonder why on Earth you wouldn't give the ring to Faramir, since he apparently can't be swayed by its power.
A similar question was raised in a fantasy literature course I took at the University of Georgia 10 years (best class ever, by the way). One of the students asked why they didn't just give the ring to Sam, since when he does get it for a short time, he shrugs off its power. Another answered that Sam has to be there for Frodo, that if Tolkien had given the ring to Sam and it had affected him, Frodo would not have been able to resist it as effectively if it fell to him.
I accepted this explanation, but now I'm really wondering what reason there could be not to give the ring to Faramir. Could someone who has read the book more recently throw out some ideas?
(The EE improved upon TTT in every way, by the way. I wasn't completely satisfied with the theatrical release, but now it is a worthy companion to FotR. Even the silly things, like Eowyn's soup and the axe in the nervous system, were so humorous that I can't complain about them.)
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kengar
First Post
theburningman said:
In the case of Sam, the primary thing that drives his will is his love for his master, Frodo. Sam only holds and uses the Ring for a very short time. During that time, Sam is more or less fixated on rescuing Frodo. Even then, when he gives the Ring back to Frodo, he is reluctant.
There was a brief moment of temptation when Sam first takes the Ring which he resists with "plain old hobbit sense"; but if he had left his master for dead (as he originally thought Frodo was) and headed for Mt. Doom, I would wager the Ring would have won him over eventually.
In the case of Faramir, I think the thing to keep in mind is that there is a difference between refusing the Ring (resisting) and bearing the Ring (enduring). People like Faramir & Galadriel manage to "just say no" but Frodo doesn't have that option. He must carry the Ring and endure its weight and its attempts to erode his will and sanity.
Another thing to remember with Tolkien is there is a certain element of destiny in his stories. Frodo is fated to take the Ring. It is his Doom. So -in the stories- events, etc. are going to tend to play out in a way that leaves him with the Ring and the task that was "appointed" to him.
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barsoomcore
Unattainable Ideal
Okay, the Extended Edition is a VAST improvement over the theatrical release. Many of the elements that really bugged me in the theatre (like Faramir's portrayal and the general frenetic pacing) are handled much better.
There's still a couple of things that I think are just plain failures, not even questions of style or taste. Just plain bad film-making.
1. The characters keep talking to themselves
There's any number of scenes where characters, standing around by themselves, start announcing things to nobody. It's especially bad in the early parts with the Three Hunters -- Legolas will run up to the camera, with Aragorn and Gimli each clearly a hundred yards away or more, and declaims on how long they've been running. That's just lame. In the book, they're talking to each other, but every time there's one of these moments in the film I'm tempted to yell, "Who are you talking to!?"
2. The sudden appearance of a hundred Ents
I can accept the "Pippin tricks Treebeard" idea -- I think a slow building of wrath among the Ents would have been BETTER, but with the new pacing I can handle Treebeard walking out into the clearcut and freaking out.
What is just too much to accept is the hundred Ents that suddenly pop out of the woodwork (so to speak). After all the swooping helicopter shots showing us how big and dense Fangorn is, after all this time spent with Treebeard walking alone and saying, "There's not so many of us anymore, and we move slowly, us Ents," where the heck do all these bozos come from?
It's just not believable, no matter what your take on the revised plotting is.
3. The water effects in Isengard.
Wow, what a disappointment. After all these wonderful shots (that sequence in FotR with the moth counts for me as one of the great moments in cinema history) swooping through the great halls and shafts of Isengard, we get this AWFUL miniature work -- it's CLEARLY a miniature with a couple of buckets of muddy water poured on it.
I know water's hard to do. I know. That doesn't make it look any more real. I just hope PJ winces every time he sees that, and wishes he'd kept the whole thing off-screen.
Other things that still bug me, but I consider questions of taste:
Gimli the comic relief. I don't mind the occasional goofy bit, but they've turned his entire character into the wacky sidekick. It's disappointing. His fight sequences seemed to have been elaborated on in the EE, it seemed. Which I approve of.
Not hard-core enough. Where does everybody go in Helm's Deep? When Theoden gives the order to fall back into the keep and surrender the gate, we cut to the inner hall and there's half-a-dozen guys holding the door while Aragorn and Theoden debate what to do.
Where'd everybody go?
I know, I know -- they're dead. But we don't see them anywhere -- there's a surprising lack of carnage in the shots of the orcs rampaging through the gatehouse. Very few bodies -- certainly not enough to account for all the men who were standing there just moments ago. We needed more dead bodies -- we needed to see more people (like the kids especially) dying and suffering. The battle's just not powerful enough for me -- it's not gripping the way the final fight in FotR was. And I think that's because we're not seeing enough people get kakked.
Call me bloodthirsty, but I want to see them PAYING THE PRICE. LotR is all about the price good men and women pay for doing the right thing. I will love these heroes more if they have to suffer more.
Sam's noble speech. Poor Sean Astin -- what a thankless bit of dialogue to have to get through, especially with his on-again, off-again accent. It was just poorly written and over-scored and he never really nailed it. That should have been three sentences long, something simple in that Gamgee fashion.
And shield-surfing's just lame. Puh-leeze.
On the other hand, there's lots to like. I'm a Faramir fan, now. I thought the added Osgiliath scene really helped all that -- plus it made Boromir's fall seem even more tragic -- you could see that he was a decent guy honestly trying to do the right thing.
Miranda Otto is absolutely radiant. She is the perfect Eowyn, and I get goosebumps when I think of her saying "Begone, foul dwimmerlaik!"
Liv Tyler.
Likewise Bernard Lee as Theoden. "Where is the horse and the rider?" Yikes.
Billy Boyd and Dominic Monahan and Elijah Wood and Sean Astin continue to absolutely embody their characters. Boyd's moment of realisation in Fangorn was heartbreaking, just as the added scene of flotsam and jetsam was heartwarming.
Liv Tyler.
Haldir's fall likewise was a great moment.
And that has to count as the greatest screen explosion of all time. Hoo boy.
Liv Tyler.
...
Liv Tyler.
...
Sorry, what?
There's still a couple of things that I think are just plain failures, not even questions of style or taste. Just plain bad film-making.
1. The characters keep talking to themselves
There's any number of scenes where characters, standing around by themselves, start announcing things to nobody. It's especially bad in the early parts with the Three Hunters -- Legolas will run up to the camera, with Aragorn and Gimli each clearly a hundred yards away or more, and declaims on how long they've been running. That's just lame. In the book, they're talking to each other, but every time there's one of these moments in the film I'm tempted to yell, "Who are you talking to!?"
2. The sudden appearance of a hundred Ents
I can accept the "Pippin tricks Treebeard" idea -- I think a slow building of wrath among the Ents would have been BETTER, but with the new pacing I can handle Treebeard walking out into the clearcut and freaking out.
What is just too much to accept is the hundred Ents that suddenly pop out of the woodwork (so to speak). After all the swooping helicopter shots showing us how big and dense Fangorn is, after all this time spent with Treebeard walking alone and saying, "There's not so many of us anymore, and we move slowly, us Ents," where the heck do all these bozos come from?
It's just not believable, no matter what your take on the revised plotting is.
3. The water effects in Isengard.
Wow, what a disappointment. After all these wonderful shots (that sequence in FotR with the moth counts for me as one of the great moments in cinema history) swooping through the great halls and shafts of Isengard, we get this AWFUL miniature work -- it's CLEARLY a miniature with a couple of buckets of muddy water poured on it.
I know water's hard to do. I know. That doesn't make it look any more real. I just hope PJ winces every time he sees that, and wishes he'd kept the whole thing off-screen.
Other things that still bug me, but I consider questions of taste:
Gimli the comic relief. I don't mind the occasional goofy bit, but they've turned his entire character into the wacky sidekick. It's disappointing. His fight sequences seemed to have been elaborated on in the EE, it seemed. Which I approve of.
Not hard-core enough. Where does everybody go in Helm's Deep? When Theoden gives the order to fall back into the keep and surrender the gate, we cut to the inner hall and there's half-a-dozen guys holding the door while Aragorn and Theoden debate what to do.
Where'd everybody go?
I know, I know -- they're dead. But we don't see them anywhere -- there's a surprising lack of carnage in the shots of the orcs rampaging through the gatehouse. Very few bodies -- certainly not enough to account for all the men who were standing there just moments ago. We needed more dead bodies -- we needed to see more people (like the kids especially) dying and suffering. The battle's just not powerful enough for me -- it's not gripping the way the final fight in FotR was. And I think that's because we're not seeing enough people get kakked.
Call me bloodthirsty, but I want to see them PAYING THE PRICE. LotR is all about the price good men and women pay for doing the right thing. I will love these heroes more if they have to suffer more.
Sam's noble speech. Poor Sean Astin -- what a thankless bit of dialogue to have to get through, especially with his on-again, off-again accent. It was just poorly written and over-scored and he never really nailed it. That should have been three sentences long, something simple in that Gamgee fashion.
And shield-surfing's just lame. Puh-leeze.
On the other hand, there's lots to like. I'm a Faramir fan, now. I thought the added Osgiliath scene really helped all that -- plus it made Boromir's fall seem even more tragic -- you could see that he was a decent guy honestly trying to do the right thing.
Miranda Otto is absolutely radiant. She is the perfect Eowyn, and I get goosebumps when I think of her saying "Begone, foul dwimmerlaik!"
Liv Tyler.
Likewise Bernard Lee as Theoden. "Where is the horse and the rider?" Yikes.
Billy Boyd and Dominic Monahan and Elijah Wood and Sean Astin continue to absolutely embody their characters. Boyd's moment of realisation in Fangorn was heartbreaking, just as the added scene of flotsam and jetsam was heartwarming.
Liv Tyler.
Haldir's fall likewise was a great moment.
And that has to count as the greatest screen explosion of all time. Hoo boy.
Liv Tyler.
...
Liv Tyler.
...
Sorry, what?
Numion
First Post
barsoomcore said:
My thoughts exactly. I noticed this in the theaters, and when I discussed it with my friends afterwards, they hadn't noticed anything. I couldn't understand how anyone could miss it, it was totally "wrong size" water.
In reality they used like a million litres of water, but it still looks bad.
jdavis
First Post
I got a kick out of the footage of Arwin fighting at Helms Deep and her saying that she did read the internet comments they had in the documentaries, that and the footage of Elrond actually going to Lorien, man talk about a bullet dodged there. You can just imagine what kind of ruckus those changes would of made.
I didn't knotice the flooding of Isengard being that bad, I'll have to go back and watch that.
Yea the scene where there were there were only 10 or so soldiers holding the Helms Deep keep gate was sort of odd, in the scene before they showed hundreds of guys getting to safety and then there are only a dozen soldiers left to hold the gate, then they ride out with hundreds of mounted soldiers a few minutes later, where did all those guys go? And did all the elves die? Where were they for the last ride out? (At least Arwin wasn't there leading them to victory).
All the Ents jumping out of the woods at the end was probably done more for dramatic purposes, I mean how exciting would it of been if Treebeard called them for war then the Hobbits took naps while they all slowly lumbered through the woods. Treebeard:"A sorcerer should know better, and the day after tomorrow when everybody else shows up we'll show him..... anybody want some tea?"
I sort of liked Sam's speech and the shield surfing bit was more for the kids in the audience, just twich and wince through it and it is over quick (just like the Dr Gimli Neurosurgeon bit).
I loved the Flotsam and Jetsam scene, I'm happy with the much better portrayal of Faramir and I loved the scene with Eowyn and her soup. If only they could of gotten rid of Aragorn falling off the cliff, but I guess that was just too ingrained into the plot.
I didn't knotice the flooding of Isengard being that bad, I'll have to go back and watch that.
Yea the scene where there were there were only 10 or so soldiers holding the Helms Deep keep gate was sort of odd, in the scene before they showed hundreds of guys getting to safety and then there are only a dozen soldiers left to hold the gate, then they ride out with hundreds of mounted soldiers a few minutes later, where did all those guys go? And did all the elves die? Where were they for the last ride out? (At least Arwin wasn't there leading them to victory).
All the Ents jumping out of the woods at the end was probably done more for dramatic purposes, I mean how exciting would it of been if Treebeard called them for war then the Hobbits took naps while they all slowly lumbered through the woods. Treebeard:"A sorcerer should know better, and the day after tomorrow when everybody else shows up we'll show him..... anybody want some tea?"
I sort of liked Sam's speech and the shield surfing bit was more for the kids in the audience, just twich and wince through it and it is over quick (just like the Dr Gimli Neurosurgeon bit).
I loved the Flotsam and Jetsam scene, I'm happy with the much better portrayal of Faramir and I loved the scene with Eowyn and her soup. If only they could of gotten rid of Aragorn falling off the cliff, but I guess that was just too ingrained into the plot.
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Assenpfeffer
First Post
barsoomcore said:
That's my absolute favorite bit in either version of the movie. It's the moment, which I think will be reinforced in RotK, when Sam becomes the real hero of the story.
Assenpfeffer
First Post
jdavis said:
I've seen it probably around 50 times. While some of the shots don't look quite right, I hardly think it looks terrible. And as Numion points out, thousands of gallons of water were actually used - the miniature was the size of a baseball diamond - so it's not as if the whole thing was done in an office.
Bass Puppet
First Post
I just got the EE of TTT with the Weta Gollum Statue (Great Sculpture) and viewed it on my day off yesterday. I have to say it is much better than I had anticipated. I'm looking forward to next year when I can sit down, get totaly wasted, and watch all three EE in one day.
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