Review of Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay

[Spell]

Anyway. It is true, I believe, that WFRP biggest selling point, and it's biggest difference from D&D worlds is the atmosphere.

you know, i do agree with you... even if i have a hunch that the world wouldn't play well with a rule heavier system...
i think it conveys a certain old school, not necessarily politically correct feeling, that makes the game fun.
but then, i don't agree with people that say that the setting couldn't be played, say, with some version of the old D&D game (those that say that classes are much worse than careers... well, maybe so, but still...).
it would just take the right elements.

If someone totally unfamiliar with WFRP was to read the review, and buy the book based on that, chances are the -atmosphere- would end up being closer to D&D than is good for the system.

you are right, but in the book there are enough hooks and setting fluff matherial that the idea of running a hack and slash warhammer adventure in the way it is run in d&d should sound pretty crazy.
you can surely have high adventures and/or hack and slashing in warhammer, if you feel so... you just have to avoid big monsters that have made the story of that type of D&D game until your PCs are enough beefed up to be a match to, say, a dragon. i do agree with you though, that maybe playing some version of (A)D&D would probably suits the tastes of the group better...

 

[Spell]

So was "Power Behind the Throne" - which is generally considered one of the finest WFRP adventures out there, and is almost complete RP.

you see, the point is not whether you can have non combat adventures with D&D or not. i think you're reading something that is not in the statement.
of course you can have investigative or political campaigns with D&D, where nobody draws a sword for entire adventures.
it's just that, on average, people playing with D&D will be more interested in fighting big monsters, AS WELL AS role playing. i am not saying anything new, if i say that combat is a central part of D&D. do we all agree with that?

well, in warhammer, combat is important, too... but it's much much more lethal. sure, you can spend fate points to avoid death... but that doesn't mean that you will be like new in two days, when the party cleric will have a good deal of curative spells cast on you.
the fact that going into combat could very well mean that your character will not come out alive from the encounter, does discourage you from taking on unnecessary fights.
at least, that is my experience.

 

[Spell]

The people are disagree with are the people who obviously do not like D&D/d20, hate that the review compared the two systems, and are mad that any comparison can be made.

i should really ignore you, but i can't stop from asking this as well:
can you name some names? who are these blind "D&D haters" that you are pointing your fingers at? i don't see any!

 

[Spell]

Anyone who thinks that Warhammer isn't high fantasy really needs to sit down with the various Slayer books (Skaven, Troll, Vampire, etc...) It's like a Monster Manual or whose whose of monsters in the Warhammer world and it's main character runs around with a rune axe and his hencman with a dragon bane sword!

Much like D&D, Atmosphere is up to the GM and players and is portrayed widely different in the source material. Heck, look at Valten. He's got the whole farm boy saves the world thing going on.

joe, i think that you should not confuse warhammer fantasy battle with warhammer roleplaying. most fans on the net have conceded that the world has changed to make room for more high fantasy stuff in the war game.
now, green ronin was forced to introduce at least some of those changes (i am not into the war game stuff, so i can't tell how high fantasy the old world is in those books) by games workshop. that doesn't mean that the roleplaying's old world is now high fantasy, but it *is* a bit more high fantasy than before if you are totally new to the game and pick up what's in the core book and ignore the old matherial. you can very well ignore whatever change in the setting and go with the old version, too.

that said, i don't think you can say: "warhammer is high fantasy because they sell miniatures of the emperor on a griffon" or "just check those army books"... at the end of the day, those are two games, developed by different people, and enjoyed (sometimes) by different fan bases.
it would be like somebody saying: "magic is quite rare in D&D... look at those AD&D2nd edition raveloft books..."

 

[Spell]

joe: what do you exactly mean with high fantasy, though? my definition might have littel to do with yours!

if you call high fantasy a world where there is a lot of awe inspiring and horrible things going on, where magic does exist and it produces great results and inspires great fear in the average peasant, then we can agree.
if you call hig fantasy (as i do) a world where there is a clear distinction between good and evil, where the PCs are meant to be good and to save the world at least at the end of every campaign, where magic is mundane and disposable and safe, where dragons and the most common fantasy monster are quite common and lose much of their impact on the gamers, then i think you are missing the point of warhammer...

 

[JoeGKushner]

joe: what do you exactly mean with high fantasy, though? my definition might have littel to do with yours!

if you call high fantasy a world where there is a lot of awe inspiring and horrible things going on, where magic does exist and it produces great results and inspires great fear in the average peasant, then we can agree.
if you call hig fantasy (as i do) a world where there is a clear distinction between good and evil, where the PCs are meant to be good and to save the world at least at the end of every campaign, where magic is mundane and disposable and safe, where dragons and the most common fantasy monster are quite common and lose much of their impact on the gamers, then i think you are missing the point of warhammer...

But to a certain point, Warhammer still has a distinction between good and evil. For example, there are no good Chaos worshippers. There are no good orcs. There are no good skaven. Many of the monsters in Warhammer are indeed monsters and make many apperances in the fiction and gaming material (heck, the 'secret' Skaven make like two apperances in the adventure anthology).

And saving the world? Well, the core campagins ahve the PCs doing some big things.

 

[Spell]

But to a certain point, Warhammer still has a distinction between good and evil. For example, there are no good Chaos worshippers. There are no good orcs. There are no good skaven.

that is very true. as a matter of fact, to some extent, D&D has a wider gray scale palette for monsters. orcs might be riding the village because they are evil, or maybe because some horrible monster pushed them out of their caves and now they are starving... i have played many D&D campaigns where the players had to make some tough moral call.
in warhammer, there is not such need. orcs, goblins, dragons, beasts of chaos... they are all evil, and they all want to kill everybody for gore's sake.

on the other hand, would you say that the average peasant is good? what about the politicians down the city? the wizard in the lonely tower?
throughout the warhammer matherial it is pointed very clear that everybody is plotting, and a secret agenda going on, is probably telling you lie after lie to make you do what he wants, is exploiting you and the world all around in a way or another.
sure, there is place for white hearted heroes... but those are the exception, not the norm.
in a way, the fact that the monsters are perceived to be sinkholes of evil is also a by-product of such widespread grittiness: if my brother is ready to backstab me for a plate of soup, then those horrible monstrosities must be really really sick!!!

And saving the world? Well, the core campagins ahve the PCs doing some big things.

that is true, too. but i feel that the PCs do those things despite themselves and the world around them... as if put in the right circumstances, they had no way out to save their skin but doing those big things...

 

[Barak]

The Felix and Gotrek novels do give a good view of that. They don't do heroics for heroics sake (well, especially not Gotrek), and they stumbled upon and stop big bad plots by accident more often than not, or because a bad guy is betraying another.

 

[Spell]

well, since we are now talking about warhammer at large...
any advice on which novels are must read (i.e. very good for the background and/ or the plot)? which are best avoided?

 

[JoeGKushner]

well, since we are now talking about warhammer at large...
any advice on which novels are must read (i.e. very good for the background and/ or the plot)? which are best avoided?

For me, the Felix and Gortex novels are popcorn. Not deep, a little silly, and a 'waste' of a good afternoon.

I've heard good things about C. L. Moore (I think that's it), Witch Hunter series.