Review on some of the Quint Books (long)

[Stalker0]

ITs not the combat scenario that's really the problem Neo, although there is a feat in the book that allows you double that CR, making a 20th level druid a 20th level Dragon.

However, its the ultimate flexibility. The ability to have virtually any ability in the ph means the Druid can adapt to any situation in seriously powerful ways. If he just had this, it might not be so bad. But add in the druid's powerful spells, AND his animal companions, and the druid has far too much power.

If anyone else has an opinion on this, please chime in. It would be appreciated./

 

[Bendris Noulg]

Seems over the top...

Is this applied via Feats, or a general expansion of the ability?

 

[Mongoose_Matt]

I recommend forgoing the benefit/drawbacks, and just use the backgrounds for....backgrounds.

Funny you should say this - when I began writing Quintessential Fighter, that was _exactly_ what the Character Concepts were!

The trouble is, I just knew that some people would be very unhappy if we put 20 pages of 'background' material into a rules-heavy supplement. So, the benefits/drawbacks had to go in.

However, they have consistently stood up to playtesting in average sized parties of 4-6 players as any discrepancy between benefits and drawbacks (the nature of which will vary between characters and players anyway) is so tiny as to be unmeasurable.

It is also funny how many people miss that one little line at the start of the chapter that states the Character Concepts are there to flesh out characters, not to twink them But I digress. . .

If you want to ditch the benefits/drawbacks from your own campaign, buy all means go for it - that is _exactly_ what I had intended from the very beginning. However, don't be afraid to give them a bash either (especially in books such as Wizard), as they can add just enough to the rules to make one Fighter (or whomever) very different from another.

BTW, thanks for the reviews, we'll try to keep up the good work!

 

[Fenes 2]

I don't have the Quint Druid, but imho, you cannot just take the CR and rule it balanced - with some spell-like abilities you can wreak havoc in any campaign that does not just feature dungeon crawl after dungeon crawl. Remember that the CR is judged for a combat encounter during which the creature will not be alive for long, not for a PC that can use all spell-like abilities, especially those that he can use at will, at leasure.

Lets take, f.e. teleport without error at will. Not very powerful for a single encounter against a party, but for a trader, messenger or similar profession... name your price, you will get it, without risk. Got a big amount of goods? No problem, just spend a couple of minutes teleporting back and forth...

 

[kenjib]

ITs not the combat scenario that's really the problem Neo, although there is a feat in the book that allows you double that CR, making a 20th level druid a 20th level Dragon.

Lol! Can you do outsiders? Wonder Twin power activate...form of SOLAR! (CR 19)

Spell-Like Abilities: At will: aid, animate objects, commune, continual flame, dimensional anchor, greater dispelling, holy smite, imprisonment, improved invisibility (self only), lesser restoration, remove curse, remove disease, remove fear, resist elements, summon monster VII, and speak with dead; 3/day-blade barrier, earthquake, heal, permanency, resurrection, and shapechange; 1/day-greater restoration, mass charm, power word blind, power word kill, power word stun, prismatic spray, symbol (any), and wish. These abilities are as the spells cast by a 20th-level sorcerer (save DC 17 + spell level).

The following abilities are always active on the solar’s person, as the spells cast by a 20th-level sorcerer: detect evil, detect snares and pits, discern lies, see invisibility, and true seeing. They can be dispelled, but the solar can reactivate them as a free action.

Celestial Qualities: Protective aura, fire resistance 20, tongues, electricity, cold, acid, and petrification immunity, +4 save against poison.

 

[Bendris Noulg]

Re: Re: Review on some of the Quint Books (long)

Funny you should say this - when I began writing Quintessential Fighter, that was _exactly_ what the Character Concepts were!

The trouble is, I just knew that some people would be very unhappy if we put 20 pages of 'background' material into a rules-heavy supplement.

If anything, this is exactly what's missing in the new era of gaming.

So, the benefits/drawbacks had to go in.

Most of my issues with these relate to various -2 to checks. Rather than making it a (permanent) penalty, it would have likely worked better to have indicated that they had something similar to, say, -2 Ranks. This way, Skill Points can be applied to overcome the background disadvantage, permiting the PC to grow beyond these limitations. Instead, there's an eternal -2 penalty that is more akin to a stereotype than a concept. By contrast, some of the concepts pull-back the Feats, yet these are easily overcome by obtaining the Feat in question, thus overcoming the hindrance. There are also some trouble spots in there as well: The Outlaw Background feeds into the Deepwoods Sniper like a dream come true for someone Min/Maxing their way up the ladder.

If you want to ditch the benefits/drawbacks from your own campaign, buy all means go for it - that is _exactly_ what I had intended from the very beginning. However, don't be afraid to give them a bash either (especially in books such as Wizard), as they can add just enough to the rules to make one Fighter (or whomever) very different from another.

I'd recommend keeping them, but to adjust them to a degree. For instance, the above Outlaw/Deepwoods Sniper combo is fixed by changing the +4 Bonus to "starting out with 4 Ranks in the following Skills...". This way, the initial background is a boost at lower levels, but becomes more watered down with Level Gain. It also prevents the Fighter from increasing his ranks until Level 9, unless he multiclasses. It does make becoming a Deepwood Sniper a bit easier, but it doesn't make one a better Deepwood Sniper, if you take my meaning.

Then again, I don't use Deepwood Snipers, but...

 

[Neo]

ITs not the combat scenario that's really the problem Neo, although there is a feat in the book that allows you double that CR, making a 20th level druid a 20th level Dragon.

However, its the ultimate flexibility. The ability to have virtually any ability in the ph means the Druid can adapt to any situation in seriously powerful ways. If he just had this, it might not be so bad. But add in the druid's powerful spells, AND his animal companions, and the druid has far too much power.

If anyone else has an opinion on this, please chime in. It would be appreciated./

Hi Stalker0

Well first off a CR is not equal to a level <g> so a 20th level druid would be a CR20 dragon and not a level 20 dragon and CR20 as a dragon is still only around about mature adult to old in age categories, which is something most parties of 20th level adventurers would beat quite easily.

there is also no feat I am aware of in Quint Druid, which doubles the Cr of the Wild shape you can attain.

Its also worth noting that without the Augment Wild shape feat in order to access an advanced wild shape power your very limited in the size of the creature you can become, so Dragon you may be but you'd only be a medium sized one, which has a significant impact on its effectiveness also. and in order to be a bigger dragon you'd have to pick augment wild shape again in order to get the next step up and again to get the next etc.until you get a decent sized one, which is going to eat up the feats of your dedicated shifter.

I would recommend you limit a druids available forms further to only those creatures he has seen though as that is pretty sensible.

regarding him having spells as well well that is why the CR of the form is significantly reduced from the Druids it balances the equation. As for Animal companions well that raises another question they aren't familiars they are just animals, so if a druid becomes something like a dragon epsecially say a dragon old enough to have a fear effect then chances are they'd scarper <g>

 

[Stalker0]

Neo, the ability that increases the CR is on page 92, called empower form. However, I did make one error, as this only applies to one form the druid can take. While this does reduce the power abuse, in my opinion it is still highly abusable.

And no, you can't go solars, no outsiders

Edit: Wow, didn't know the makers of the Quint Books might actually be listening While I haven't gotten the Quint Fighter book yet, I will soon, I will review it like the other, and if its anywhere near as good as teh others, I think it will get a good review

 

[Neo]

Neo, the ability that increases the CR is on page 92, called empower form. However, I did make one error, as this only applies to one form the druid can take. While this does reduce the power abuse, in my opinion it is still highly abusable.

Hiya Stalker yeah, thats an Advanced Power not a feat, and you have to take the augment Wild shape to be able to pick that, plus you ahve to be 15th level, plus it only applies to one kind of form (as you point out) and it uses up twice the number of daily wildshape uses.

So 15th level Druid guy can become a Medium to Small sized creature of Cr15 of one kind that he also has access to and meets the requirements to assume.

 

[Neo]

Oh you should check out Quint Witch if you liked Quint Druid Stalker its a fantastic book.