D&D 2E Revised and rebalanced dragons for AD&D 2e

[Just Passing Through]

OK, I was wondering what that number was. I initially thought it was the combat bonus!


Hmm. I think maybe reduce the size some and increase the damage some, so they meet in the middle so to speak. Personally, I wouldn't worry about a great wyrm red dragon doing insane amounts of breathweapon damage. IMO, they should and the PCs need to find was to counter this (fire resistance, bonus to saving throws, etc.) or avoid the dragon or figure out another way to deal with it. However, my general stance is that most PCs should be a TPK against a great wyrm, so I am biased.

I think smaller size (and possibly less HP) and more dangerous attacks will make a fight with a dragon more memorable.

I am less worried about the breath weapon damage (as the breath is something that pc's are the most likely to have prepared for) and more the trample/tail sweep/wing buffet damage spike. Physical damage is much harder to resist than energy damage.

Your idea is pretty good, I will see what I can do to create a more effective balance.

 

[dave2008]

I am less worried about the breath weapon damage (as the breath is something that pc's are the most likely to have prepared for) and more the trample/tail sweep/wing buffet damage spike.

You can modify them or make them only usable once every other round or every 1d4 rounds or something to spread them out. That could make the fight more interesting too. Also, this might address the bigger issue IMO - to many attacks per round. The damage can be higher if you have fewer attacks per round. 1e had claw/claw/bite or breathweapon. Maybe the trample/tail sweep/ wing buffet are not additional, but options. Also, for tail attacks, you could limit to attack creatures it hasn't attacked with a claw or bite attack or something to lessen single target damage.

 

[Just Passing Through]

I have actually considered reducing the number of attacks to 3 per round and making some of the special attacks alternate options in place of those attacks (like what was done with dragons back in BECMI). I guess I just like how I managed to make things somewhat work with the six attacks and the alternate options. But I posted on this forum primarily to receive feedback and act on it so that is what I am going to do. I will see if and how I can make this work.

 

[Just Passing Through]

Dragon damage and size values have been updated, along with a slight reduction in hit points.

 

[NotAYakk]

There is a bunch of complexity in this I might want to simplify.

1. The various damage amounts for various attacks. I'd simplify it somehow. Less table lookup.

2. Options like "wing buffet" or "wing strike", "tail swipe" or "tail strike". A dragon that can only use the tail to swipe as dragony or more than one that can also ... stab with it? Similarly, punching with a wing vs making a whirlwind and knocking everyone away.

I'd do something like this.

Start with a base damage amount. Say, 2d4.

Unlock additional moves as you get bigger.

Having a wyrmling frantically do 1d2 wing damage is a bit zzz. I'd rather move the "damage budget" over to a Bite.

Imagine a progression (with growing HD) of:
Bite only
Bite+1 Claw
Bite+Claw+Special (Wing or Tail)
Bite+2Claw+Special (Wing or Tail)
Bite+2Claw+2 Special (Wing and Tail)

together with increasing damage in a pattern, so that (total damage) matches the target curve.

 

[Just Passing Through]

I will do my best to simplify it. Any other advice you can give me would help greatly with the process.

 

[Just Passing Through]

How is this for modified/simplified damage and abilities? Tail sweep, trample, wing storm, and wing buffet have all been removed, and the number of attacks a dragon can make in a round has been reduced to 3. In exchange, the damage has been increased significantly (although dragons are still limited in how many attacks they can use against an individual creature), and the riders on the abilities have been somewhat altered.

HD​	Bite (x1)​	Claw/Wing/Tail (x2)​
1 +1​	2d6​	1d6​
2 +4​	2d8+1​	2d4+1​
3 +6​	2d8+1​	2d4+1​
4 +12​	2d10+2​	2d6+2​
5 +15​	2d10+2​	2d6+2​
6 +24​	4d6+3​	2d8+3​
7 +28​	4d6+3​	2d8+3​
8 +40​	4d8+4​	2d10+4​
9 +45​	4d8+4​	2d10+4​
10 +60​	6d6+5​	4d6+5​
11 +66​	6d6+5​	4d6+5​
12 +72​	6d8+6​	4d8+6​
13 +78​	6d8+6​	4d8+6​
14 +84​	8d6+7​	6d6+7​
15 +90​	8d6+7​	6d6+7​
16 +96​	8d8+8​	6d8+8​
17 +102​	8d8+8​	6d8+8​
18 +108​	12d6+9​	8d6+9​
19 +114​	12d6+9​	8d6+9​
20 +120​	12d8+10​	8d8+10​
21 +126​	12d8+10​	8d8+10​

Dragon Natural Weaponry and Attack Forms

A dragon may make up to 3 attacks per round, one with its bite, and two with its claws. A dragons coordination and flexibility means that it can strike any creature near it with any of its attacks regardless of their relative position to the dragon, and can split its attacks any way it chooses amongst multiple opponents. However, a dragon can only employ at most 1 attack against a single foe.


If a dragon succeeds on an attack by 4 or more against a creature two or more sizes smaller than itself, it inflicts an additional effect depending on what attack was used.

Bite: The creature is swallowed and takes damage as from the dragon’s bite each subsequent round. Swallowed creatures may attempt to fight their way out of the dragon’s gullet against an effective AC of 10, but only light piercing or stabbing weapons such as a dagger may be employed, and for each round that passes they have a cumulative -1 penalty to damage from such attacks. Nonetheless, any creature that succeeds in doing a number of points of damage equal to the dragons hit dice will be regurgitated from the dragon.

Claw: The creature is snatched in the dragon’s claws and is squeezed for automatic claw damage each subsequent round. The creature may still attack the dragon, but owing to the circumstances attacks are made at a -4 penalty to hit. The creature must make a successful bend bars/lift gates roll to free themselves, and may attempt to escape each round. A dragon can only hold one creature in each claw, and cannot attack with a claw that is holding a creature. A dragon may always voluntarily release a grappled creature, and may move with grappled creatures at half speed.

Wing: The creature is pushed 60 feet away from the dragon.

Tail: The creature is knocked prone


Dragons have several options they can use in place of making certain attacks. The following table provides a breakdown of a dragons normal combat routine, and the replacement options for each attack mode. Unless a dragon has multiple uses of a certain attack mode it cannot use multiple replacement options for the same attack mode in a round.

Normal Dragon Attacks in a Round​	Can Replace With​
Bite​	Breath Weapon, Hypnotic Gaze, Psionic Ability, Spell, Spell Like Ability​
Claw (x2)​	Wing, Tail​

 

[NotAYakk]

Oh, don't get me wrong. I like wing storm/buffet/tail sweep.

I'd argue for these to "come online" at higher levels.

T1: Bite only (wyrmling)
T2: Bite + Claw
T3: Bite + Claw + Special
T4: Bite + 2Claw + Special
T5: Bite + 2Claw + 2 Special

Tail Sweep
All creatures in an area the size of the Dragon that doesn't contain a creature the Dragon attacked with a claw or bite.

Wing Buffet
All creatures within 10' of Dragon.

The Tail Sweep can't be used in combo with a bite/claw because, well, behind the dragon's ass.

The wing buffet has less range.

...

Most importantly, for design, record the total damage budget of the HD count.

On your chart:
1 HD is 14 (14/HD)
2 HD is 22 (11/HD)
3 HD is 22 (7/HD)
4 HD is 31 (8/HD)

If you started with 2d6 bite only, counting AOEs as 2, you'd get:
1 HD is 2d6 (7)
2 HD is (2d8+1 / 1d6+1) 14.5 (7.3 / HD)
3 HD is (2d8+1 / 1d8+1 x 2) 21 (7 / HD)
4 HD is (2d10+2 / 1d10 + 2 x 2) 28 (7 / HD)
5 HD is (2d10+2 / 1d10 + 2 x 2 / 1d6+2 AOE) 39 (7.8 / HD)
6 HD is (2d10+3 / 1d10 + 3 x 2 / 1d6+3 AOE) 44 (7.3 / HD)
7 HD is (3d10+3 / 2d8 + 3 x 2 / 1d6+3 AOE) 55.5 (7.9 / HD)
8 HD is (3d10+4 / 2d8 + 4 x 2 / 1d6+4 AOE) 60.5 (7.6 / HD)
9 HD is (3d10+4 / 2d8 + 4 x 2 / 2d6+4 AOE) 68.5 (7.6 / HD)
10 HD is (3d10+5 / 2d8 + 5 x 2 / 2d6+5 AOE) 73.5 (7.4 / HD)
11 HD is (4d10+5 / 2d8 + 5 x 2 / 2d6+5 AOE) 79 (7.2 / HD)
12 HD is (4d10+6 / 2d8 + 6 x 2 / 2d6+6 AOE) 84 (7.0 / HD)
13 HD is (4d12+6 / 2d10 + 6 x 2 / 2d8+6 AOE) 96 (7.4 / HD)
14 HD is (4d12+7 / 2d10 + 7 x 2 / 2d8+7 AOE) 100 (7.1 / HD)
15 HD is (4d12+7 / 3d10 + 7 x 2 / 2d8+7 AOE) 111 (7.4 / HD)
16 HD is (4d12+8 / 3d10 + 8 x 2 / 2d8+8 AOE) 116 (7.3 / HD)
17 HD is (4d12+8 / 3d10 + 8 x 2 / 2d8+8 x2 AOE) 133 (7.8 / HD)
18 HD is (4d12+9 / 3d10 + 9 x 2 / 2d8+9 x2 AOE) 140 (7.8 / HD)
19 HD is (5d12+9 / 3d10 + 9 x 2 / 2d8+9 x2 AOE) 146.5 (7.7 / HD)
20 HD is (5d12+10 / 3d10 + 10 x 2 / 2d8+10 x2 AOE) 153.5 (7.7 / HD)
21 HD is (6d12+10 / 3d10 + 10 x 2 / 2d8+10 x2 AOE) 160 (7.6 / HD)

At low levels, we have Bite = 2 Claw dice.
The AOE starts as 1/2 of a Claw (1d6 or 1d10 or 2d6).

At 13 HD it becomes 4d12s for bite, 2d10s for claw, 2d8s for aoe.

At 17 we get a 2nd AOE.

At 19 and 21 we get an extra 1d12 bite.

NOTE: I identified math errors starting at 2nd AOE. I undercounted damage at that point. Needs work.

 

[Just Passing Through]

Oh, don't get me wrong. I like wing storm/buffet/tail sweep.

I'd argue for these to "come online" at higher levels.

T1: Bite only (wyrmling)
T2: Bite + Claw
T3: Bite + Claw + Special
T4: Bite + 2Claw + Special
T5: Bite + 2Claw + 2 Special

Tail Sweep
All creatures in an area the size of the Dragon that doesn't contain a creature the Dragon attacked with a claw or bite.

Wing Buffet
All creatures within 10' of Dragon.

The Tail Sweep can't be used in combo with a bite/claw because, well, behind the dragon's ass.

The wing buffet has less range.

...

Most importantly, for design, record the total damage budget of the HD count.

On your chart:
1 HD is 14 (14/HD)
2 HD is 22 (11/HD)
3 HD is 22 (7/HD)
4 HD is 31 (8/HD)

If you started with 2d6 bite only, counting AOEs as 2, you'd get:
1 HD is 2d6 (7)
2 HD is (2d6+1 / 1d6+1) 12.5 (6.2 /HD)
3 HD is (2d8+1 / 1d8+1 x 2) 21 (7 / HD)
4 HD is (2d10+2 / 1d10+2 x 2) 28 (7 / HD)
5 HD is (2d10+2 / 1d10 + 2 x 2 / 1d6+2 AOE) 39 (7.8 / HD)
6 HD is (2d10+3 / 1d10 + 3 x 2 / 1d6+3 AOE) 44 (7.3 / HD)
7 HD is (4d6+3 / 2d6 + 3 x 2 / 1d6+3 AOE) 48 (6.8 / HD)
8 HD is (4d6+4 / 2d6 + 4 x 2 / 2d6+4 AOE) 60 (7.5 / HD)
9 HD is (3d10+4 / 2d10 + 4 x 2 / 1d10+4 AOE) 69.5 (7.7 / HD)
10 HD is (3d10+5 / 2d10 + 5 x 2 / 1d10+5 AOE) 74.5 (7.5 / HD)
11 HD is (4d10+5 / 2d10 + 5 x 2 / 1d10+5 AOE) 80 (7.3 / HD)
12 HD is (4d10+6 / 2d10 + 6 x 2 / 1d10+6 AOE) 85 (7.1 / HD)
13 HD is (4d12+6 / 2d10 + 6 x 2 / 2d8+6 AOE) 96 (7.4 / HD)
14 HD is (4d12+7 / 2d10 + 7 x 2 / 2d8+7 AOE) 100 (7.1 / HD)
15 HD is (4d12+7 / 3d10 + 7 x 2 / 2d8+7 AOE) 111 (7.4 / HD)
16 HD is (4d12+8 / 3d10 + 8 x 2 / 2d8+8 AOE) 116 (7.3 / HD)
17 HD is (4d12+8 / 3d10 + 8 x 2 / 2d8+8 x2 AOE) 133 (7.8 / HD)
18 HD is (4d12+9 / 3d10 + 9 x 2 / 2d8+9 x2 AOE) 140 (7.8 / HD)
19 HD is (5d12+9 / 3d10 + 9 x 2 / 2d8+9 x2 AOE) 146.5 (7.7 / HD)
20 HD is (5d12+10 / 3d10 + 10 x 2 / 2d8+10 x2 AOE) 153.5 (7.7 / HD)
21 HD is (6d12+10 / 3d10 + 10 x 2 / 2d8+10 x2 AOE) 160 (7.6 / HD)

At low levels, we have Bite = 2 Claw dice.
The AOE starts as 1/2 of a Claw (1d6 or 1d10 or 2d6).

At 13 HD it becomes 4d12s for bite, 2d10s for claw, 2d8s for aoe.

At 17 we get a 2nd AOE.

At 19 and 21 we get an extra 1d12 bite.

I really like this idea.

 

[dave2008]

How is this for modified/simplified damage and abilities? Tail sweep, trample, wing storm, and wing buffet have all been removed, and the number of attacks a dragon can make in a round has been reduced to 3. In exchange, the damage has been increased significantly (although dragons are still limited in how many attacks they can use against an individual creature), and the riders on the abilities have been somewhat altered.

HD​	Bite (x1)​	Claw/Wing/Tail (x2)​
1 +1​	2d6​	1d6​
2 +4​	2d8+1​	2d4+1​
3 +6​	2d8+1​	2d4+1​
4 +12​	2d10+2​	2d6+2​
5 +15​	2d10+2​	2d6+2​
6 +24​	4d6+3​	2d8+3​
7 +28​	4d6+3​	2d8+3​
8 +40​	4d8+4​	2d10+4​
9 +45​	4d8+4​	2d10+4​
10 +60​	6d6+5​	4d6+5​
11 +66​	6d6+5​	4d6+5​
12 +72​	6d8+6​	4d8+6​
13 +78​	6d8+6​	4d8+6​
14 +84​	8d6+7​	6d6+7​
15 +90​	8d6+7​	6d6+7​
16 +96​	8d8+8​	6d8+8​
17 +102​	8d8+8​	6d8+8​
18 +108​	12d6+9​	8d6+9​
19 +114​	12d6+9​	8d6+9​
20 +120​	12d8+10​	8d8+10​
21 +126​	12d8+10​	8d8+10​

Dragon Natural Weaponry and Attack Forms

A dragon may make up to 3 attacks per round, one with its bite, and two with its claws. A dragons coordination and flexibility means that it can strike any creature near it with any of its attacks regardless of their relative position to the dragon, and can split its attacks any way it chooses amongst multiple opponents. However, a dragon can only employ at most 1 attack against a single foe.


If a dragon succeeds on an attack by 4 or more against a creature two or more sizes smaller than itself, it inflicts an additional effect depending on what attack was used.

Bite: The creature is swallowed and takes damage as from the dragon’s bite each subsequent round. Swallowed creatures may attempt to fight their way out of the dragon’s gullet against an effective AC of 10, but only light piercing or stabbing weapons such as a dagger may be employed, and for each round that passes they have a cumulative -1 penalty to damage from such attacks. Nonetheless, any creature that succeeds in doing a number of points of damage equal to the dragons hit dice will be regurgitated from the dragon.

Claw: The creature is snatched in the dragon’s claws and is squeezed for automatic claw damage each subsequent round. The creature may still attack the dragon, but owing to the circumstances attacks are made at a -4 penalty to hit. The creature must make a successful bend bars/lift gates roll to free themselves, and may attempt to escape each round. A dragon can only hold one creature in each claw, and cannot attack with a claw that is holding a creature. A dragon may always voluntarily release a grappled creature, and may move with grappled creatures at half speed.

Wing: The creature is pushed 60 feet away from the dragon.

Tail: The creature is knocked prone


Dragons have several options they can use in place of making certain attacks. The following table provides a breakdown of a dragons normal combat routine, and the replacement options for each attack mode. Unless a dragon has multiple uses of a certain attack mode it cannot use multiple replacement options for the same attack mode in a round.

Normal Dragon Attacks in a Round​	Can Replace With​
Bite​	Breath Weapon, Hypnotic Gaze, Psionic Ability, Spell, Spell Like Ability​
Claw (x2)​	Wing, Tail​

Its getting there. A definite improvement. I agree with @NotAYakk that the various attacks should become available as the dragon ages. I also think more options is better(for older dragons), but there should be a limit to how many can be used in a round.

 

[Griffon Lore Games]

Awesome.

 

[NotAYakk]

I went over my damage chart again to tighten it up.

Now I attempt to get to decreasing die size and count from bite to claw to aoe faster.

Bite/Claw/Claw is at most 1 per target.

Tail Swipe is the size of the dragon (so on a 40' x 40' dragon, is a 40' by 40' area), and cannot hit who you bit or breathed upon (head and tail are in opposite directions). You can Tail Swipe someone you clawed, however. (This is both vermissiltude, and reduces focus-fire capabilities)

Wing Buffet is all within 10' (so melee range, including reach weapons) of the Dragon.

Dragons with 1x AOE can pick one to use on a round.

---

As a thought, a breath weapon could use both an AOE slot and a Bite slot (and maybe have a recharge mechanic). That gives it more "damage budget", and means that the dragon still has a tactical decision to make between wing buffet and tail smash (on breath weapon turns).

---

Another thought is to have tiers for damage. I mean, tweaking damage dice at each HD is cute, but maybe not needed.

Being off by 5% or 10% at 20 HD doesn't matter.

The pattern I did above was you get +1 static damage every even level. On odd levels I upped damage, added an attack, etc in order to keep it just above 7 damage per HD.

But...

(a) we could just drop 1 HD dragons. Maybe they all start at 3 HD.

Then 3-4, 5-7, 8-12, 13-19, 20+ are all windows where the max level is less than 1.5x the min level.

5', 10', 15', 20', 30' square dragons. Have damage be by dragon size, not by HD.

At 4, 6, 10, 16, grant some bonus (4: claw, 6: aoe, 10: 2nd claw, 16: 2nd aoe). Those are the midpoints of each of those ranges, so can be features that grant +22% damage, where the other +35%ish is from the larger size category.

Would have fewer tables.

Here is another table.

Bite: Bite dice + HD/2 (round down)
Claw: Bite dice + HD/2
Wing: AOE dice (no bonus)
Tail: AOE dice (no bonus)

Before Gargantuon, Bites are 4 dice, claws 2, aoes are 1 of the same die size.

Wing buffet hits everyone within 10' (in melee, including reach weapons). Creatures hit are pushed back (dragon size) distance.

Tail is an area as big as the dragon's space, and cannot include the Bite target. Creatures hit are knocked prone.

HD    Size   Attacks    Bite   Claw   AOE    Flat   DPR     DPR/HD
3      M       B        4d6     -      -      1     15      5
4      M      B+C       4d6    2d6     -      4     25      6.3

5      L      B+C       4d8    2d8     -      4     31      6.2
6      L     B+C+A      4d8    2d8    1d8     6     42      7
7      L     B+C+A      4d8    2d8    1d8     6     42      6

8      H     B+C+A      4d10   2d10   1d10    8     52      6.5      
9      H     B+C+A      4d10   2d10   1d10    8     52      5.8
10     H     B+2C+A     4d10   2d10   1d10   15     66      6.6
11     H     B+2C+A     4d10   2d10   1d10   15     66      6.0

12     G     B+2C+A     4d12   2d12   1d12   18     92      7.7
13     G     B+2C+A     4d12   2d12   1d12   18     92      7.1
14     G     B+2C+A     4d12   2d12   1d12   21     95      6.8
15     G     B+2C+A     4d12   2d12   2d12   21    108      7.2
16     G     B+2C+A     4d12   2d12   2d12   24    111      6.9
17     G     B+2C+A     4d12   2d12   2d12   24    111      6.5
18     G     B+2C+A     4d12   3d12   2d12   27    127      7.1
19     G     B+2C+A     4d12   3d12   2d12   27    127      6.7

20     C    B+2C+2A     5d12   3d12   2d12   30    154      7.7
21     C    B+2C+2A     6d12   4d12   2d12   30    173      8.2

At 3 HD the dragon is medium and uses d6 dice
At 4 HD the dragon gets a claw attack.
At 5 HD the dragon becomes large and uses d8 dice
At 6 HD the dragon can do one tail or wing attack.
At 8 HD the dragon becomes huge and uses d10 dice
At 10 HD the dragon can do 2 claw attacks.
At 12 HD the dragon becomes gargantuan and uses d12 dice
At 15 HD the tail/wing does 2 dice of damage.
At 18 HD the claw does 3 dice of damage.
At 20 HD the dragon becomes colossal, bite does 5 dice, and it can wing and tail on the same turn.
At 21 HD the bite does 6 dice and the claw does 4 dice.

 

[Just Passing Through]

Wow! I am really liking what you are doing with this! A few questions though.

1) The dragons tail slap and wing buffet are attacks that target AC rather than forcing saving throws, correct?

2) Have you considered changing the AOE of the wing buffet so that it gradually increases with the dragon's size? a 10 foot AOE is fine for smaller dragons, but a colossal dragon having the same AOE as a large dragon feels a bit off. Maybe something like 5 feet for large dragons, 10 for huge, 15 for gargantuan, and 20 for colossal?

3) have you figured out what you are going to do with the breath weapon yet?

Overall I really like what you are doing here, it takes up much less space than my system and might be easier to run as well.

 

[NotAYakk]

I don't know what the tail/wing should target. And scaling makes lots of sense. It is supposed to be more restricted than the tail slap, and at 10' it is strictly better until the dragon gets larger. Make it 5' when the dragon is 10', and ensure it stays significantly smaller than the tail?

I really like the feel of "tail sweeps an area the size of the dragon". It gets the idea that the dragon's size is its body, and its tail is equally large.

I would have to refresh myself on AD&D 2e saving throws; scaling the damage on AOEs might make sense depending on how they work. AC gets easier to hit at higher levels in AD&D 2e, while saving throws are harder to land... So if we move it to saves, maybe it needs to scale faster?

The breath "budget" can come from bite and an AOE to start. Recharge 5-6 at the start of turn?

Should it have a frightful presence? That is a classic dragon thing.

 

[Just Passing Through]

On reflection, I think that having the tail/wing target armor class is fine, as it allows the current damage scaling to be kept.

I also like the idea of the tail sweep covering a dragon-sized area, while making wing buffet a smaller AOE.

Breath coming from bite and an AOE would work, however that would also mean that dragons do not get the ability to breathe until 6 hit dice.

Having a 4e style recharge mechanic for the breath might work. It would certainly make its usage less predictable, thus increasing the tension of the encounter.

Frightful presence could also be good.