Revised Challenge Ratings/Encounter Levels pdf (Version 3)

[Upper_Krust]

Re: What about...?

Hello again Tywyll!

Interesting... my understanding was there was no epic level SRD.

Thats supposed to be rectified at the end of July. With Deities & Demigods following in early August.

Anyway, are you going to convert the NPC for generic class levels, like in the DMG and the Epic book?

Not sure exactly what you mean here?

NPCs (eg. 10th-level Fighter with NPC equipment) are effectively +0.925 Challenge Rating per level.

NPCs (eg. Aristocrat, Commoner, etc.) vary in CR according to the particular class. Its all explained in the CR/EL document.

 

[Yair]

Elemental CRs

Hi there.

I've been trying to apply the system to earth-elementals, and came up with quite impressive CRs. I've got CR 3.7 Small,5.2 Medium,9.95 Large,16.1 Huge, 19.05 Greater, 19.25 Elder. This is when WotC rated them at CR 1,3,5,7,9,11.
I am concerned whether the system is really dependable. I have a 4-character 6th-level party. If I understand it correctly, I can confront them at most with a Large (CR 10) earth elemental, whereas WotC recommends a Greater would be acceptable (this is less of a problem than it should be, since the elemental may not move at any case in that particular enounter, but still). I don't want to accidently make a TPK (not ACCIDENTALY )

I provide the math, so you could check me:
Factor Small Medium Large Huge Greater Elder
Feats +0.0 +0.0 +0.0 +0.0 +00.0 -00.20 (?!)
HD +1.1 +2.2 +4.4 +8.8 +11.55 +13.2
Mv. (burrow)+0.5 +0.5 +0.5 +0.5 +0.5 +0.5
Mv. (speed) +0.0 -0.1 -0.2 -0.3 -0.3 -0.3
Mult. Attack -0.2 -0.2 -0.2 -0.2 -0.2 -0.2 (?!)
Nat. AC +0.7 +0.9 +1.0 +1.1 +1.3 +1.5
Size -0.5 +0.0 +1.5 +3.0 +3.0 +3.0
DR +0.0 +0.0 +0.75 +1.0 +1.0 +1.25
Darkvision +0.2 +0.2 +0.2 +0.2 +0.2 +0.2
Earth Mastery+0.1 +0.1 +0.1 +0.1 +0.1 +0.1 (?!)
Push +0.2 +0.2 +0.2 +0.2 +0.2 +0.2 (?!)
Elemental +1.7 +1.7 +1.7 +1.7 +1.7 +1.7
------ -------- ----- ------- ------- ---------
CR 3.7 5.2 9.95 16.1 19.05 19.25

By the way, what is the "CR modifier" for tremorsense? Also, guidelines for judging other abilites (for example Earth Mastery or Push) could be useful, although I suppose good guidelines would be hard to pin down.

How dependable is this system, in your experinece? And just how extensive is this experience ?

 

[seasong]

My experience with earth elementals is that how deadly they are depends entirely on whether or not the PCs have room to maneuver. If they can maneuver, they can outrun and outfly the earth elemental. The elf can plug it with arrows while everyone else sips martinis and gambles on how many shots it will take.

If they DON'T have room to maneuver, a Large elemental will chew up a 5th level party (dishes out around 40 damage per round, more than even a reasonably beef 5th level fighter has; plus good AC, DR 10/+1, and Reach, which is one of the great killers).

U_K's system generally seems to assume short ranges and little maneuverability (note how cheap movement, flight, etc., is, compared to melee damage capabilities). So for this, it's spot on - if you are planning for your party to be able to maneuver, particularly a party that can get a fair number of the team airborne, the party can probably handle any size of earth elemental with appalling ease.

 

[kkoie]

I think it looks great. Design wise, this is very good.

 

[Coredump]

Yair and Seasong

Remember, what Uk calls 'CR' is *not* the same thing that WotC calls 'CR'. That can cause some confusion if you are not careful.

.

 

[Yair]

Thanks seasong, that was quite illuminating. My party can all fly (well, 3 out of 4), but they will be fighting in a large chamber so that will be less meaningful. The part where the earth elemental can't move will be meaningful, of course... I'll think about it.]
(For the record, their aim is not to kill him but rather to disrupt the summoning diagram he is within; his goal is to prevent that. I will probably give him some summon-elemental powers too, or else he will fail at that.)

Coredump: Yes, I am aware of that. I think I did calculate EL, PEL etc. properly. Thanks anyways.

 

[seasong]

Yair, I'd guess it depends on how you handle elementals and subdual damage?

As for the large room: How big? A huge elemental covers a 25 ft by 20 ft rectangular area, and another 20-25 ft high. With a 40 ft charge, it could quite effectively defend a room that is up to 45 ft by 40 ft.

Of course, if he can't reach out of the summoning diagram, he's toast. I'd recommend subdual damage to the PCs if they don't want him to be dead toast.

 

[Zhnov]

1/2 OT - Q: IH OGL?

Howdy Upper Krust!

Q: Will aspects of the IH product be covered under your own OGL, allowing others to develop additional concepts for publication?

I'm very certain that the work will be comprehensive, but there may be tangent concepts....

Respectfully,
Lil' Scribbler

 

[Upper_Krust]

Re: Elemental CRs

Hi all!

Lot to get through...bear with me.

Hi there.

Hey Yair!

I've been trying to apply the system to earth-elementals, and came up with quite impressive CRs. I've got CR 3.7 Small,5.2 Medium,9.95 Large,16.1 Huge, 19.05 Greater, 19.25 Elder. This is when WotC rated them at CR 1,3,5,7,9,11.

Well WotC don't rate monsters properly, simple as that.

However, the version of my CR/EL system you are reading is not quite perfect.

Version 4 of my CR/EL pdf clarifies a number of issues and tweaks a number of rules.

Anyway, I used V.4 and got the following:

Small: 3.8 (3.5)
Medium: 4.9 (4)
Large: 9.85 (9)
Huge: 15.5 (15)
Greater: 18.45 (18)
Elder: 20.8 (20)

I am concerned whether the system is really dependable. I have a 4-character 6th-level party. If I understand it correctly, I can confront them at most with a Large (CR 10) earth elemental,

No. You are using WotC CR/EL for your party there.

You have to convert the party to my system as well. For this you only need character level.

Admittedly thats a problem a number of people have commented on, that its not obvious the party must also be converted. Version 4 sorts all this out.

whereas WotC recommends a Greater would be acceptable (this is less of a problem than it should be, since the elemental may not move at any case in that particular enounter, but still). I don't want to accidently make a TPK (not ACCIDENTALY)

Well a Party of Four 6th-level characters will be P(arty)EL 11

A CR 9 (Large Earth Elemental) = EL 13.
Therefore the Large Earth Elemental will represent a 'Tough' EL +2 encounter.

A CR 15 (Huge Earth Elemental) = EL 16.
Therefore the Huge Earth Elemental would represent a 'Difficult' EL +5 encounter...slightly harder than a 50/50 encounter.

A CR 18 (Greater Earth Elemental) = EL 17.
Therefore the Huge Earth Elemental would represent a 'Very Difficult' EL +6 encounter.

A CR 20 (Elder Earth Elemental) = EL 18.
Therefore the Huge Earth Elemental would represent a 'Very Difficult' EL +7 encounter.

Of course none of these take into account Situational Modifiers which is something I expand and expound upon in Version 4.

I provide the math, so you could check me:
Factor Small Medium Large Huge Greater Elder
Feats +0.0 +0.0 +0.0 +0.0 +00.0 -00.20 (?!)
HD +1.1 +2.2 +4.4 +8.8 +11.55 +13.2
Mv. (burrow)+0.5 +0.5 +0.5 +0.5 +0.5 +0.5
Mv. (speed) +0.0 -0.1 -0.2 -0.3 -0.3 -0.3
Mult. Attack -0.2 -0.2 -0.2 -0.2 -0.2 -0.2 (?!)
Nat. AC +0.7 +0.9 +1.0 +1.1 +1.3 +1.5
Size -0.5 +0.0 +1.5 +3.0 +3.0 +3.0
DR +0.0 +0.0 +0.75 +1.0 +1.0 +1.25
Darkvision +0.2 +0.2 +0.2 +0.2 +0.2 +0.2
Earth Mastery+0.1 +0.1 +0.1 +0.1 +0.1 +0.1 (?!)
Push +0.2 +0.2 +0.2 +0.2 +0.2 +0.2 (?!)
Elemental +1.7 +1.7 +1.7 +1.7 +1.7 +1.7
------ -------- ----- ------- ------- ---------
CR 3.7 5.2 9.95 16.1 19.05 19.25

That looks pretty accurate for Version 3, which I imagine you are using.

By the way, what is the "CR modifier" for tremorsense?

+0.2

Also, guidelines for judging other abilites (for example Earth Mastery or Push) could be useful, although I suppose good guidelines would be hard to pin down.

Unfortunately I can't adjudicate every individual ability in the pdf. Try and discern if the ability you are rating is the equivalent of feat. Is it more powerful than a feat? Less Powerful? etc.

Earth Mastery I gave -0.2 (although it could be +/-0), essentially its giving a +2 bonus but a -8 penalty. However the penalty is going to be applied perhaps 50% (for -0.2) or 25% (for +/-0) of the time; maybe even less - though it is something that could be exploited.

Push +0.2.

How dependable is this system, in your experinece? And just how extensive is this experience ?

I am probably biased...that said Version 4 will rule.

I am sure there will be many other people here that will give you a fair appraisal.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Seasong mate!

My experience with earth elementals is that how deadly they are depends entirely on whether or not the PCs have room to maneuver. If they can maneuver, they can outrun and outfly the earth elemental. The elf can plug it with arrows while everyone else sips martinis and gambles on how many shots it will take.

If they DON'T have room to maneuver, a Large elemental will chew up a 5th level party (dishes out around 40 damage per round, more than even a reasonably beef 5th level fighter has; plus good AC, DR 10/+1, and Reach, which is one of the great killers).

U_K's system generally seems to assume short ranges and little maneuverability (note how cheap movement, flight, etc., is, compared to melee damage capabilities). So for this, it's spot on - if you are planning for your party to be able to maneuver, particularly a party that can get a fair number of the team airborne, the party can probably handle any size of earth elemental with appalling ease.

Remember this type of thing is handled through Situational Modifiers. Something Version 4 goes into greater detail on.