Revised Challenge Ratings/Encounter Levels (pdf)

[Upper_Krust]

Hi all!

I would be interested in hearing some feedback on the following excerpt from the Immortals Handbook.

Essentially it comprises a few of the appendices, concentrating on how to accurately determine Challenge Rating and how to make changes to Encounter Levels.

The benefits of this system to Challenge Rating are manifold. The changes can be used, to not only better quantify CR (removing the guesswork), but also to: create Templates; outline Effective Character Levels and far more accurately delegate the effects of Monster Advancement.

The benefits to Encounter Levels are even more far reaching since they correct the current flaws in the rules; function at any measure of power and actually save epic rules from becoming myopic and unnecessarily (and wrongly) limiting what characters of a certain level should and should not encounter.

Anyway, let me know what you all think.

Thanks.

 

[Alchemist]

I gave it only a quick skim, and haven't been following the cr-adjustment discussion, so my insight is limited. However, I can say some things.

I'm not much for the title font you used. all the l's look like t's. It's not comfortable to read.

That would be my biggest criticism. I like what you've got there, and I could see myself using it to cobble together some baddies to try it all out and see how it works in the field.

 

[kkoie]

Well I looked over your exerpt. My initial reactions are as follows.

I realy don't like the header font. While stylisticly its great, I think it's over used. Perhapes it should be restricted more. Not used as a general header, but only for things like introducing the chapters or sections. Also, on the side panel where you have the main title of the book in grey, then the title of the book section in black, I really don't like how the section title is imposed over the book title. Perhapes if they were seperated? Or if the Immortals Handbook title was of a more bolder font?

The CR system. Wow talk about details. You pretty much leave nothing to chance with your system when it comes to rating CRs. My only criticisms are that for one thing, it may seem a little too complicated for some people. Also, the ratings for moderate challenges, they are awfully high. I myself would switch the numbers, or just drop the moderate ratings, and stick with the difficult ratings. For one thing, I think a 60th level party would beat the living snot out of a ancient gold wyrm. Second, no DM wants to wait til the character is 40 or 50th level before he can throw one at his party. There for emphasis should be placed more on the level at which the party can initially face the creature.

I personally, after comparing how you've done up the dragons, and wotc, would have to agree more with wotc's standpoint. Dragons are not random encounters. 9 times out of 10, a party will know they are facing one and would've prepared accordingly. Therefor their advanced preparedness should be taken into account, and their CR dropped a few notches to ensure they are of the proper difficultly. Dragons are too cool to be shuffled in with the rest of other monsters as a typical encounter. They should be kept on that slightly higher mantel, with the lowered CR to increase their challenge.

 

[Alchemist]

I personally, after comparing how you've done up the dragons, and wotc, would have to agree more with wotc's standpoint. Dragons are not random encounters. 9 times out of 10, a party will know they are facing one and would've prepared accordingly. Therefor their advanced preparedness should be taken into account, and their CR dropped a few notches to ensure they are of the proper difficultly. Dragons are too cool to be shuffled in with the rest of other monsters as a typical encounter. They should be kept on that slightly higher mantel, with the lowered CR to increase their challenge.

Not to start a highjack, but...

The same argument could be made for the Terrasque. Or any other big, bad once in a lifetime monster. And that makes it a story call, not a mechanics call. As such, I think dragons should be evaluated on the same basis as any other monster and the DM should be aware that it's going to be easier to beat because the party is prepared, and act accordingly by adjusting XP for the encounter. pre-adjusting the CR assumes the DM isn't capable of making those connections. I don't want my hand held for that sort of thing.

And now, on with the discussion.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Alchemist!

I gave it only a quick skim, and haven't been following the cr-adjustment discussion, so my insight is limited.

Thats okay, no hurry for feedback, I don't expect everyone to absorb it all in a few minutes.

However, I can say some things.

I'm not much for the title font you used. all the l's look like t's. It's not comfortable to read.

That would be my biggest criticism.

Okay thanks for the feedback, much appreciated. I see a few people have mentioned the font, I may remove it from the third subheading, I just haven't found a good alternative yet.

I like what you've got there, and I could see myself using it to cobble together some baddies to try it all out and see how it works in the field.

Hey thanks for the compliment, I think you will find it works quite well, and is a necessity at epic levels.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi kkoie mate!

I hope you and the family have been keeping well!?

Well I looked over your exerpt. My initial reactions are as follows.

Sure fire away, and much appreciated.

I realy don't like the header font. While stylisticly its great, I think it's over used. Perhapes it should be restricted more. Not used as a general header, but only for things like introducing the chapters or sections.

I probably agree, I just haven't found a replacement font I liked for the subheadings yet.

Also, on the side panel where you have the main title of the book in grey, then the title of the book section in black, I really don't like how the section title is imposed over the book title. Perhapes if they were seperated? Or if the Immortals Handbook title was of a more bolder font?

The reason behind that idea (and with the page numbers) was to highlight the dichotomy of the Immortal-Mortal relationship. Where one is bigger than the other but both rely on one another. That was also the reason behind the font choice - if you will notice the letters combine upper with lower case.

I may change the side bars to just say the section and the bottom bars to say the chapter.

The CR system. Wow talk about details. You pretty much leave nothing to chance with your system when it comes to rating CRs.

Well I showed a previous version (this is version 4) to Andy Collins and he remarked how it wouldn't work unless you added a number of things. Sufficed to say I think I have covered all his suggestions and then some.

My only criticisms are that for one thing, it may seem a little too complicated for some people.

Well its actually more simple once you get to grips with the nuances, like relative Encounter Levels etc.

Also, the ratings for moderate challenges, they are awfully high. I myself would switch the numbers, or just drop the moderate ratings, and stick with the difficult ratings. For one thing, I think a 60th level party would beat the living snot out of a ancient gold wyrm.

Exactly, they would defeat it fairly easily, using approx. 20% of their resources.

Second, no DM wants to wait til the character is 40 or 50th level before he can throw one at his party. There for emphasis should be placed more on the level at which the party can initially face the creature.

But you have overlooked one of the fundamentals of my rules:

Encounter Levels are relative.

If I have a CR 60 monster I know immediately that it will be an EL +2 for a 40th-level party (2/3); will be an EL +4 for a 30th-level party (1/2); will be an EL +6 for a 20th-level party (1/3) and an EL +8 for a 15th-level party (1/4).

So actually my system expands the range of challenges you can set against a party; whereas the core rules limit them unnecessarily and the epic rules strangle them.

I personally, after comparing how you've done up the dragons, and wotc, would have to agree more with wotc's standpoint. Dragons are not random encounters. 9 times out of 10, a party will know they are facing one and would've prepared accordingly.

Then thats a situational modifier in the parties favour, not carte blanche to WotC to arbitrarily increase the dragons CR. Something that actually insults a DMs intelligence!

Therefor their advanced preparedness should be taken into account, and their CR dropped a few notches to ensure they are of the proper difficultly.

See 'Situational Modifiers'. Under the Experience Points (EXP) header.

Dragons are too cool to be shuffled in with the rest of other monsters as a typical encounter. They should be kept on that slightly higher mantel, with the lowered CR to increase their challenge.

Then individual DMs are free to lower their CR as they see fit. But WotC should not put out a CR they know to be wrong.

 

[Cheiromancer]

A lot of fine tuning when into this document!

I like the revised Harm and Heal. I like the fine distinctions between different kinds of modifiers (insight bonus to AC is worth more than a natural armor bonus, stuff like that).

I have a reservation about the new DR rule; what happens when creatures have lopsided DR's like DR (15/+6) or DR (20/+7)? I believe some of the baddies in the Book of Vile Darkness had stats like that. A +3 or +4 weapon would do them normal damage under your optional rule.

Your revised CR's are very useful when used in conjunction with Savage Species; the revised CR is pretty much the number of levels in a monstrous class. (often it is right on!- or rather, WotC managed to get it right some of the time).

I think, though, that some of the higher CR's might be a little bit too high. Take the leShay for instance: it seems to be equivalent to a character around the mid 30's. A leShay is not a 50th level character- too many of the special abilities have faded away by then. What good is SR of 42 if your opponents are 50th level?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello again Alchemist!

Not to start a highjack, but...

The same argument could be made for the Terrasque. Or any other big, bad once in a lifetime monster. And that makes it a story call, not a mechanics call.

No. A story call is a left to individual situations (see 'situational modifiers'). A monsters CR has nothing to do with unique situations.

As such, I think dragons should be evaluated on the same basis as any other monster and the DM should be aware that it's going to be easier to beat because the party is prepared, and act accordingly by adjusting XP for the encounter.

Are PCs 100% every time going to know they are facing a dragon before they face one!? Quite frankly no! You cannot give that guarantee (especially not at epic levels).

pre-adjusting the CR assumes the DM isn't capable of making those connections. I don't want my hand held for that sort of thing.

Surely you are reversing the psychology here. You are assuming the party always know they are fighting a dragon beforehand and that WotC are doing DMs a favour, when actually they are saying "we don't think your smart enough to know understand different situations so we will arbitrarily change the dragon CR for you!"

And now, on with the discussion.

 

[Alchemist]

I was arguing on your side, not against it Upper Krust.

Just to clarify: I don't think WotC should have tooled back the CR's of Dragons just because the party is probably going to be prepared, using the example that the same argument could be made for Terrasque hunting. I'm with you, man. It might read a little different from that light.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Cheiromancer mate!

A lot of fine tuning when into this document!

Thanks!

I like the revised Harm and Heal.

I am sure WotC will change both spells in the revised core rulebooks. But it was necessary to change them for Immortals play.

I like the fine distinctions between different kinds of modifiers (insight bonus to AC is worth more than a natural armor bonus, stuff like that).

I have a reservation about the new DR rule; what happens when creatures have lopsided DR's like DR (15/+6) or DR (20/+7)? I believe some of the baddies in the Book of Vile Darkness had stats like that. A +3 or +4 weapon would do them normal damage under your optional rule.

My suggestion is that you give then a DR equal to the enchantment bonus needed to hit x5.

eg.
DR 30/+3 = DR 15/+3
DR 15/+1 = DR 5/+1

I probably should have added that to the document.

Your revised CR's are very useful when used in conjunction with Savage Species; the revised CR is pretty much the number of levels in a monstrous class. (often it is right on!- or rather, WotC managed to get it right some of the time).

Yeah they fluked it a couple of times.

I think, though, that some of the higher CR's might be a little bit too high.

Remember to take into account relative Encounter Levels.

Take the leShay for instance: it seems to be equivalent to a character around the mid 30's. A leShay is not a 50th level character- too many of the special abilities have faded away by then. What good is SR of 42 if your opponents are 50th level?

All power is relative.

Also remember that the CR designates a moderate encounter.