Revised Challenge Ratings/Encounter Levels (pdf)

[kkoie]

Well I understand you guys points on the bit about Dragons.

As for the font issue, I'm not sure how well you've searched, but there are a number of websites that contain both free and for pay fonts. Here's one website that has quite an interesting collection. http://www.fontsnthings.com

In any event, if you can't find a good replacement, then don't replace it. Just restrict it to things like chapter headings and such, and find another font for general headings. A friend told me you can buy cds for like $20 that have loads of fonts, but I've not looked for them myself, you might try some of your more popular computer store sites and see if they have anything.

 

[seasong]

So here's my abuse of the system. I tried to stay within the design parameters on page 7 of the sample PDF.

Note that the Threatener has improved initiative and a total AC of 32 (base 10, +0 dex, +8 size, +14 natural armor) at CR 5 (a +12 to hit only hits 5% of the time), and some hardness for those situations when that's not enough. The Threatener should get off at least one summoning, at which point the Buggeral shows up.

The Buggeral has the same AC and hardness, but instead of a summoning ability, has very fast flight and a 2 point permanent CON drain as an area-effect breath weapon. We can describe it however we like, dehydrating dust works for me, but that's going to be going off every round against a little bastard that's a real pain to hit (and who, if I was running him, would remain well over the opponent's head).

Note that the Buggeral is CR 23 - which makes sense, that's about right for him - but that he can be (and almost certainly will be) summoned by a creature we are expected to believe a 5th level party can face.

I think the summon rules for CR need some work, if players are expected to use these rules when playing immortals.

Threatener (Small Aberration) CR 5 (from 4.94) EL 10
0. Ability Scores: No STR (CR -1), CON +2 (CR +0.2), no other modifiers
1. Character Levels (none)
2. Extra Feats (none)
- Improved Initiative (by HD)
3. HD 4d8/Aberration (+2.2 CR)
4. Integrated Spell Levels (none)
5. Movement: Fine, 5 ft (none)
6. Multiple Attacks (none)
7. Natural Armor: +14 natural armor (+1.4 CR)
8. NPC Levels (none)
9. Size: Fine (-1 CR)
10. Extra Skill Points (none)
11. Special Attacks/Qualities
- Hardness 4 (+0.8 CR)
- Immune: Mind Affecting Effects (+0.5 CR)
- Summon: CR 23, 4/day (+1.84 CR) (max HD = 4)
12. Templates (none)
13. Type/Subtype (none)
14. Wealth (none)

Buggeral (Fine Aberration) CR 23 (from 23.3) EL 18
0. Ability Scores: No STR (CR -1), CON +50 (CR +4), DEX +20 (CR +2), no other modifiers
1. Character Levels (none)
2. Extra Feats (none)
3. HD 4d8/Aberration (+2.2 CR)
4. Integrated Spell Levels (none)
5. Movemment: Fine, Flight 110 ft (Perfect) (+10 CR)
6. Multiple Attacks (none)
7. Natural Armor: +14 natural armor (+1.4 CR)
8. NPC Levels (none)
9. Size: Fine (-1 CR)
10. Extra Skill Points (none)
11. Special Attacks/Qualities
- 2 permanent CON drain, at will breath weapon (+2.4 CR)
- note: breath weapon is a cone 10 ft long, 5 ft wide
- Fast Healing 20 (+2 CR)
- Hardness 4 (+0.8 CR)
- Immune: Mind Affecting Effects (+0.5 CR)
12. Templates (none)
13. Type/Subtype (none)
14. Wealth (none)

 

[Al]

Hi there U_K. I followed the first installation of the Immortals' Handbook and keenly await its release.

However, I think that some of the CR adjustments are slightly off...

1. Why are clerics and druids considered to be +0.9 CR/level? If anything, clerics are very powerful for a PC class, and whilst druids are not the munchkin's dream, they are probably better than (PHB) rangers or bards.

2. I like the NPC class adjustments. They sound almost exactly spot on

3. SR is a problematic one. In core rules, they circumvent the problem by general guessing at CR, then pegging SR to that. The problem is that SR is fixed, and hence has a rapidly declining utility. An SR 25 is invincible to a 1st level party, challenging for a 12th level character but worthless against a 24th level party. Yet it gives a flat +1.5 CR across the board.

4. The new EL system looks interesting. I was on the verge of slamming it then read it again. The implementation of PEL means that CR and EL are merely abstract measures of power. However, there could be a lot of confusion. At first, I thought that the CR/EL table indicated throwing CR 2 (=EL5) creatures as a challenge for a 5th level party, and CR 1000 (=EL40) creatures at a 40th level party. However, then I realised (I think this is right) that the 5th level party is actually PEL 10 (right?) so the CR2 creature is Very Easy (more likely); whilst the 40th level characters are only EL22, so the CR1000 creature is way past impossible. I think that's right- please correct me if I'm wrong! The only problem is that it is very confusing for people who are used to the current system. Perhaps renaming all the terms would help, so people don't automatically make the associations. So 'Power Rating', 'Power Level' and 'Party Power Level'?

Other than that, it looks good! I'm not sure how the alternate CRs pan out, but I will look at them a bit more hopefully. Keep up the good work.

 

[Shalewind]

1. Why are clerics and druids considered to be +0.9 CR/level? If anything, clerics are very powerful for a PC class, and whilst druids are not the munchkin's dream, they are probably better than (PHB) rangers or bards.

U_K's already answered this in this thread.

No. As I rate the classes they all worked out between +0.77/Level and +0.84/Level (rounding to +0.8, without equipment this is of course). But both the Cleric and Druid rated +0.9/Level (meaning they are +1.1/Level with PC equipment.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello everybody!

Howdy Dark Wolf mate!

Do share mate!

You guys are insidious.

I'll reveal what it is when the IH is released, not before.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi kkoie mate!

Well I understand you guys points on the bit about Dragons.

You know it makes sense.

As for the font issue, I'm not sure how well you've searched, but there are a number of websites that contain both free and for pay fonts. Here's one website that has quite an interesting collection. http://www.fontsnthings.com

In any event, if you can't find a good replacement, then don't replace it. Just restrict it to things like chapter headings and such, and find another font for general headings. A friend told me you can buy cds for like $20 that have loads of fonts, but I've not looked for them myself, you might try some of your more popular computer store sites and see if they have anything.

Thanks for the website mate.

I have looked at thousands of fonts. Specifically I wanted one that complimented the VPC font I am using on the headers, while also being a lot more legible.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi there seasong!

So here's my abuse of the system. I tried to stay within the design parameters on page 7 of the sample PDF.

Note that the Threatener has improved initiative and a total AC of 32 (base 10, +0 dex, +8 size, +14 natural armor) at CR 5 (a +12 to hit only hits 5% of the time), and some hardness for those situations when that's not enough. The Threatener should get off at least one summoning, at which point the Buggeral shows up.

The Buggeral has the same AC and hardness, but instead of a summoning ability, has very fast flight and a 2 point permanent CON drain as an area-effect breath weapon. We can describe it however we like, dehydrating dust works for me, but that's going to be going off every round against a little bastard that's a real pain to hit (and who, if I was running him, would remain well over the opponent's head).

Note that the Buggeral is CR 23 - which makes sense, that's about right for him - but that he can be (and almost certainly will be) summoned by a creature we are expected to believe a 5th level party can face.

I think the summon rules for CR need some work, if players are expected to use these rules when playing immortals.

Threatener (Small Aberration) CR 5 (from 4.94) EL 10
0. Ability Scores: No STR (CR -1), CON +2 (CR +0.2), no other modifiers
1. Character Levels (none)
2. Extra Feats (none)
- Improved Initiative (by HD)
3. HD 4d8/Aberration (+2.2 CR)
4. Integrated Spell Levels (none)
5. Movement: Fine, 5 ft (none)
6. Multiple Attacks (none)
7. Natural Armor: +14 natural armor (+1.4 CR)
8. NPC Levels (none)
9. Size: Fine (-1 CR)
10. Extra Skill Points (none)
11. Special Attacks/Qualities
- Hardness 4 (+0.8 CR)
- Immune: Mind Affecting Effects (+0.5 CR)
- Summon: CR 23, 4/day (+1.84 CR) (max HD = 4)
12. Templates (none)
13. Type/Subtype (none)
14. Wealth (none)

I see the problem (an oversight rather than a mistake); I could have sworn I changed the summoning parameters to CR. DOH!

Thanks for the feedback!

Buggeral (Fine Aberration) CR 23 (from 23.3) EL 18
0. Ability Scores: No STR (CR -1), CON +50 (CR +4), DEX +20 (CR +2), no other modifiers

CON +50 would be +5 CR.

However, I probably should add ability scores to the design parameters.

1. Character Levels (none)
2. Extra Feats (none)
3. HD 4d8/Aberration (+2.2 CR)
4. Integrated Spell Levels (none)
5. Movemment: Fine, Flight 110 ft (Perfect) (+10 CR)

The 110ft perfect movement for a Fine size creature would be +2 CR (+1 for perfect flight and +1 for 100 ft extra speed).

6. Multiple Attacks (none)
7. Natural Armor: +14 natural armor (+1.4 CR)
8. NPC Levels (none)
9. Size: Fine (-1 CR)
10. Extra Skill Points (none)
11. Special Attacks/Qualities
- 2 permanent CON drain, at will breath weapon (+2.4 CR)
- note: breath weapon is a cone 10 ft long, 5 ft wide
- Fast Healing 20 (+2 CR)

I think that fast healing is in excess of the design parameters.

- Hardness 4 (+0.8 CR)
- Immune: Mind Affecting Effects (+0.5 CR)
12. Templates (none)
13. Type/Subtype (none)
14. Wealth (none)

The CR for the Buggeral works out at CR 16.3 (16)*

*With Movement corrected.

Thanks again, much appreciated mate.

 

[seasong]

Changing the summoning to CR instead of HD was indeed the primary thing I was concerned about .

CON: Oops, thanks.

Movement: Okay, that looked like +1 CR per 10 ft, the way the text is organized.

Fast Healing: I must have missed that in the parameters . In that case I'd drop it, and pump the points into CON some more . It's like free hit dice!

Overall, it looks pretty good. I'll see if I can find any other breaking points or "things that should be in the design parameters" .

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi there U_K.

Hi there Al!

I followed the first installation of the Immortals' Handbook and keenly await its release.

Well thanks, I appreciate the interest.

However, I think that some of the CR adjustments are slightly off...

Inconceivable!

1. Why are clerics and druids considered to be +0.9 CR/level? If anything, clerics are very powerful for a PC class, and whilst druids are not the munchkin's dream, they are probably better than (PHB) rangers or bards.

Okay, well Shalewind reminded people that I had already answered this point (thanks for that Shalewind), though no harm done, an easy mistake to make.

However, it does seem that the 0.9 reference has confused a few people so I will put that on the list of things to tidy up.

2. I like the NPC class adjustments. They sound almost exactly spot on

Thanks. It took a while to get right, but looking on it now it seems so simple.

3. SR is a problematic one. In core rules, they circumvent the problem by general guessing at CR, then pegging SR to that. The problem is that SR is fixed, and hence has a rapidly declining utility. An SR 25 is invincible to a 1st level party, challenging for a 12th level character but worthless against a 24th level party. Yet it gives a flat +1.5 CR across the board.

Exactly, but as I mention in the document (page A7 bottom of the first column) the changing relationship between CR and EL mean that powers that become insignificant at higher levels affect EL less and less the higher you ascend.

4. The new EL system looks interesting.

Thanks, part inspiration, part luck in coming up with it.

I was on the verge of slamming it then read it again.

The implementation of PEL means that CR and EL are merely abstract measures of power.

Well Encounter Level is relative. Challenge Rating equates to +1 CR per +1 character level.

However, there could be a lot of confusion. At first, I thought that the CR/EL table indicated throwing CR 2 (=EL5) creatures as a challenge for a 5th level party, and CR 1000 (=EL40) creatures at a 40th level party.

An easy mistake to make at first glance I suppose...

However, then I realised (I think this is right) that the 5th level party is actually PEL 10 (right?)

Yes (provided there are either 4 or 5 characters in that party).

so the CR2 creature is Very Easy (more likely);

Yes.

whilst the 40th level characters are only EL22, so the CR1000 creature is way past impossible.

Absolutely!

I think that's right- please correct me if I'm wrong!

Yes thats right!

An easy way is simply to determine viable challenges is (as suggested in Table 1-1b Methodology behind Encounter Levels) to simply equate opponents as fractions of the Party Level.

eg. If the Party average 10th-level then we know the upper limit for challenges is going to be x4 (CR 40 in this case). Because multiplying CR by 4 is the same as increasing EL by +8.

Additionally we know that dividing the Party Level by 4 gives us the lower limit. Since dividing by 4 is the same as reducing EL by -8.

The only problem is that it is very confusing for people who are used to the current system. Perhaps renaming all the terms would help, so people don't automatically make the associations. So 'Power Rating', 'Power Level' and 'Party Power Level'?

Well we discussed all this long ago (when I actually had different terms for the things you mentioned) and found it was even more confusing to people.

Other than that, it looks good! I'm not sure how the alternate CRs pan out, but I will look at them a bit more hopefully. Keep up the good work.

Thanks for the support. Give the system a few days to 'sink in'. I agree it could be initially baffling in places especially since people have had two years to absorb the current CR rules and here I am turning their world upside down. But I think the benefits outweigh the short term problems and beyond that its actually a necessity for anyone contemplating epic/immortal levels.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello again seasong mate!

Changing the summoning to CR instead of HD was indeed the primary thing I was concerned about .

Okay then.

CON: Oops, thanks.

Movement: Okay, that looked like +1 CR per 10 ft, the way the text is organized.

...theres examples as well.

Fast Healing: I must have missed that in the parameters . In that case I'd drop it, and pump the points into CON some more . It's like free hit dice!

That'll need to be addressed. Not sure how long you have been following the Immortals Handbook discussion but it was only a week ago that we decided to remove ability scores as a generic factor, so there could still be a few teething troubles in that area.

Overall, it looks pretty good.

Thanks.

In a day or two I will compose a list of all the elements I am going to change based on the feedback in this thread. Most seem like minor details so I am pretty happy the way things have went.

I'll see if I can find any other breaking points or "things that should be in the design parameters" .

I think Ability Scores really need to be added to the Design Parameters otherwise people are going to 'go to town' on them