Revised Challenge Ratings/Encounter Levels (pdf)

[seasong]

That'll need to be addressed. Not sure how long you have been following the Immortals Handbook discussion but it was only a week ago that we decided to remove ability scores as a generic factor, so there could still be a few teething troubles in that area.

I hadn't been really. I occasionally poke my head in and read through a few weeks' worth, but there wasn't much for me to comment on that wasn't already being said by you or someone else .

I think I agree about the ability scores not being a "generic factor", incidentally. However, there are specific cases where it really DOES matter - Under the Hit Dice modifier, for example, CON directly impacts hit points, so maybe increase the cost of HD by +0.05 per 2 CON; that's less than the other effects of HD (BAB, saves, feats, skills), but still represents the advantage that simply having loads and loads of hit points provides.

Other than highly specific cases like that, though, I don't imagine that ability scores need anything more than a design parameter mention.

In a day or two I will compose a list of all the elements I am going to change based on the feedback in this thread. Most seem like minor details so I am pretty happy the way things have went.

I'm pretty happy with what you've shown so far! I'll definitely be looking for when you release it .

 

[seasong]

Movement: re-read the section, it makes more sense than I thought. I'm just blind .

Poisons: How to handle DC for the poison?

Core races: The core races seem to average around CR 1, without a hit die. Combined with the advantage of level, that would seem to make any 1st level elf fighter a CR 2 character! Is this your intent?

The Font: It's okay. It's not very attractive or readable, but at least it's only in the headers. However, I'm at a loss as to what "effect" you are trying for with it. If "not very readable" is your target, you've hit it, but I sense that maybe you were trying for something else?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi seasong mate!

I hadn't been really. I occasionally poke my head in and read through a few weeks' worth, but there wasn't much for me to comment on that wasn't already being said by you or someone else .

Sometimes we can tend to go off on a tangent in that thread but we usually cover all the basics.

I think I agree about the ability scores not being a "generic factor", incidentally. However, there are specific cases where it really DOES matter - Under the Hit Dice modifier, for example, CON directly impacts hit points, so maybe increase the cost of HD by +0.05 per 2 CON; that's less than the other effects of HD (BAB, saves, feats, skills), but still represents the advantage that simply having loads and loads of hit points provides.

We ironed all this out when we removed ability scores from being a generic factor. I think the design parameters should be sufficient.

Other than highly specific cases like that, though, I don't imagine that ability scores need anything more than a design parameter mention. I'm pretty happy with what you've shown so far! I'll definitely be looking for when you release it .

Thanks.

Movement: re-read the section, it makes more sense than I thought. I'm just blind .

Poisons: How to handle DC for the poison?

Derived from Hit Dice and Ability Scores.

Core races: The core races seem to average around CR 1, without a hit die. Combined with the advantage of level, that would seem to make any 1st level elf fighter a CR 2 character! Is this your intent?

Are 1st-level Elf Fighters supposed to have Hit Dice as well (?) I wouldn't have thought so.

The Font: It's okay. It's not very attractive or readable, but at least it's only in the headers. However, I'm at a loss as to what "effect" you are trying for with it. If "not very readable" is your target, you've hit it, but I sense that maybe you were trying for something else?

The idea with the font was to have something unique and relevant. The design of VP&Cc has a combination of an upper case and lower case letters. Which was the sort of relationship I want to court with regards mortals and immortals.

 

[seasong]

Are 1st-level Elf Fighters supposed to have Hit Dice as well (?) I wouldn't have thought so.

Elf:
0.0 no hit dice
0.1 Immunity to magic sleep spells and effects
0.2 +2 racial saving throw bonus against Enchantment spells or effects.
0.1 Low-light vision
0.2 Specialized weapon proficiencies
0.2 Alertness feat
0.1? Secret Door Detection
= CR +0.9, maybe as low as 0.7 without the weapon proficiencies.

A 1st level elf fighter (weapon proficiencies are redundant) has a total CR of 1.5 naked, 1.6 with NPC wealth, 1.7 with PC wealth.

A 1st level elf sorcerer has a total CR of 1.7 naked, 1.8 with NPC wealth, 1.9 with PC wealth.

 

[Eldorian]

Hey Uk.

I see you've recanted on the Rakshasa magic immunity. CR+4 is MUCH more reasonable =)

My only other point (i'm at school, and don't have all my files and stuff on me) was that harm and in particular mass harm are overpowered. Mass harm is better (in some ways) than the level 8 benchmark mass damage spell for wizards, Horrid Wilting. It has less range and lower area of effect, but allows the caster to pick and choose targets, and does the same damage as a maximized horrid wilting (level 11). It's also will save for half, which is very useful, not many will save damage spells out there. I forget where in the DMG it has the dice caps for spell damage, but you should perhaps take a gander at them when balancing harm (and heal, it's overpowered too, but hey).

Anyways, talk later, perhaps when i have resources availiable.

Eldorian Antar

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi all!

Anubis has just informed me that there is an error in the Spell-like Abilities factor. Apparently I missed a '0' in the multipliers. Essentially just divide the results of SLA by 10 from what they currently suggest (the Solar example is still perfect) until I get the errata sorted.

Hi seasong matey!

Elf:
0.0 no hit dice
0.1 Immunity to magic sleep spells and effects

I wouldn't rate this as +0.1...maybe +0.02

0.2 +2 racial saving throw bonus against Enchantment spells or effects.

I wouldn't rate this even +0.1...maybe +0.04

0.1 Low-light vision

Okay.

0.2 Specialized weapon proficiencies

Again, practically unrateable...maybe +0.04

0.2 Alertness feat

Granted, although this feat is very weak and needs revision (something we discussed in the IH thread).

However, its a bit churlish of WotC to balance a human character

0.1? Secret Door Detection

Again, unlikely to carry any significant weight...maybe +0.04

= CR +0.9, maybe as low as 0.7 without the weapon proficiencies.

A 1st level elf fighter (weapon proficiencies are redundant) has a total CR of 1.5 naked, 1.6 with NPC wealth, 1.7 with PC wealth.

A 1st level elf sorcerer has a total CR of 1.7 naked, 1.8 with NPC wealth, 1.9 with PC wealth.

I guess its simply how you rate some things.

I see them more akin to +0.44, maybe slightly less since you don't have freedom to choose the feat.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Uk.

Hey Eldorian mate!

I see you've recanted on the Rakshasa magic immunity. CR+4 is MUCH more reasonable =)

Well I told you on messenger that I was seemingly caught in two minds with regards Magic Immunity, either the Golem was right or the Rakshasa wrong or vice versa. I just forgot to resolve the situation and choose one over the other before 'going to press' as it were.

My only other point (i'm at school, and don't have all my files and stuff on me) was that harm and in particular mass harm are overpowered. Mass harm is better (in some ways) than the level 8 benchmark mass damage spell for wizards, Horrid Wilting. It has less range and lower area of effect, but allows the caster to pick and choose targets, and does the same damage as a maximized horrid wilting (level 11). It's also will save for half, which is very useful, not many will save damage spells out there. I forget where in the DMG it has the dice caps for spell damage, but you should perhaps take a gander at them when balancing harm (and heal, it's overpowered too, but hey).

I'll have a look at it.

Anyways, talk later, perhaps when i have resources availiable.

Okay, see you later dude.

 

[seasong]

Hi Upper Krust!

0.1 Immunity to magic sleep spells and effects

Based on the cost for immunity to sleep/paralysis/stunning (0.2).

0.2 +2 racial saving throw bonus against Enchantment spells or effects.

Should have been 0.1, based on 0.2 for a feat (Iron Will). I can somewhat see 0.05, since Will saves cover a lot of ground... it's just that most of that ground is in the enchantment school.

0.2 Specialized weapon proficiencies

Based on a reduced cost for TWO feats (both proficiencies in martial weapons). (Normally 0.4 total).

I guess its simply how you rate some things.

Well, yes. I was just rating them according to my best guess, based on your system . If I was doing this for real, I'd apply common sense... but common sense can be applied without the system at all. Most of the results I get with your system, I check against my common sense in less time than it took me to use the system - if the system is to be more useful than common sense, it should be more accurate, not less, for the extra time it takes me to use.

Granted, the specific feats or feat-equivalents an elf gets are a joke, but in your system, there's no difference in cost for feats that are good and feats that are a joke .

I see them more akin to +0.44, maybe slightly less since you don't have freedom to choose the feat.

So my question, once again, is: Did you intend for core races to add to CR? An elf cleric, by that estimate (+0.40), is CR 1.5 or higher. Should elves be treated as ECL +1 creatures if they play a cleric?

 

[Kerrick]

I read through this thing, and I like what I see. This thing beats the half-assed CR rating system in that Dragon article (the one on creating monsters) hands-down.
That being said, I found a few little mistakes - nothing major, but I thought I should point them out.
First: manifestation is an automatic ability for ghosts - they all get it.
Second: I think the CR value for the pit fiend in the Summoning example is wrong; I did the math four times, and I kept coming up with 2.5 instead of 1. Of course, that section is a little confusing, so I could well be wrong.
Third: The example CR breakdown for the Barbazu is missing a number - specifically, the CR for Spell-like abilities. It should be 0.05.

I think it's rather interesting some of the monsters in the MM break the design parameter rules. For example, the wraith. 11.01 states that ability score drain should be less than/equal to HD ( a creature with 6 HD shouldn't be able to drain more than 3 points on average), and yet we have the wraith (5 HD), which can drain 4 points on average. How do we deal with a monster like that? Adjust it as far as the ability drain, or up the CR?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Upper Krust!

Helo again mate!

Based on the cost for immunity to sleep/paralysis/stunning (0.2).

Of the above sleep immunity is easily the weakest (at most one sixth). So perhaps +0.01 was unjustified but no more than +0.03.

Should have been 0.1, based on 0.2 for a feat (Iron Will). I can somewhat see 0.05, since Will saves cover a lot of ground... it's just that most of that ground is in the enchantment school.

I think you have explained this yourself.

It should be noted also that we revised the Iron Will feat to give a +3 bonus. So I think the +0.04 is justified.

Based on a reduced cost for TWO feats (both proficiencies in martial weapons). (Normally 0.4 total).

Those proficiencies are way over rated.

Well, yes. I was just rating them according to my best guess, based on your system .

As did I.

If I was doing this for real, I'd apply common sense... but common sense can be applied without the system at all. Most of the results I get with your system, I check against my common sense in less time than it took me to use the system - if the system is to be more useful than common sense, it should be more accurate, not less, for the extra time it takes me to use.

Well its impossible for me to list and rate every single ability ever created.

I think I have given quite a lot of examples, as you say, that tempered with some common sense should generate the best results.

Granted, the specific feats or feat-equivalents an elf gets are a joke, but in your system, there's no difference in cost for feats that are good and feats that are a joke .

Well actually I have revised some of the feats (less than ten feats, epic feats, magic items and epic items), in fact I removed those pages from the above document at the last minute for some additional tweaking.

So my question, once again, is: Did you intend for core races to add to CR? An elf cleric, by that estimate (+0.40), is CR 1.5 or higher. Should elves be treated as ECL +1 creatures if they play a cleric?

I determined all the core races to add less than +0.5 to CR, so for the sake of brevity (as with ability scores) they were not factored into the equation.