Revised Challenge Ratings/Encounter Levels (pdf)

Status
Not open for further replies.
Anubis' reasonable point, restated...

"The undead types look too weak for the rating you've given them. A medium-size skeleton builds to CR 2, which is really off, considering that a party of 1st level characters can make a meal of a sizable group of skeletons. The ghoul (CR 5) and ghast (CR 7) similarly fail to match my DM Sense for CR."
 
Last edited:

log in or register to remove this ad

Hi xanatos mate! :)

xanatos said:
Some small notes... I've just finished reading it once...

Sure fire away! :)

xanatos said:
11.01 What does ['Half' = CR + 2] mean? Is the basic effect All or Nothing (so it has a save) or is it automamatic? (the same for Disease/Energy Drain)

A result of 'Half' means that half the ability score is drained.

Therefore a Touch attack dealing Ability Score Drain 'Half' is +2 CR.

xanatos said:
11.09 and 11.14 Demilich Magic Immunity is +8, Golem's one is +2.5. Now... Golem and Demilich are immune to Su abilities (Dragon Breath, Meduse's watch etc.), Rakshasa (+4,5 CR) are not! And Adamantine Golems don't have spells that can affect them! It isn't clear if all these creatures can lower their Magic Immunity/Spell Immunity to receive healing and buff spells.

DOH! I forgot to change the Demilich Magic Immunity when I changed the Rakshasas back. :o

The Demilich magic immunity should be CR +4.6.

Golems can't lower theirs because they are unthinking.

The whole Magic Immunity question needs addressed.

xanatos said:
where to go with it11.05 and 11.15 Perhaps you should put a note that a +1 to AC is valued 0,15 unless it's Natural! (there are so many names for the AC... Morale... Unnamed...)

I could add that as a footnote, thanks.
 

A result of 'Half' means that half the ability score is drained.

Therefore a Touch attack dealing Ability Score Drain 'Half' is +2 CR.

Brr... It's very powerful... What monsters do it? I want to try them on my players! :-)

Other small notes...

11.14 You forgot the Disintegrate Immunity... I think that it's quite important.

I hope you are not counting double some items... Golems and Demilich are immune to Spells and Su abilities... The immunity to Petrifaction, Death, Ability and Energy Drain and some other elements are (quite completly) included in these (Ok... Immunity doesn't cover Ex effects... But they are quite rare)

11.13 and 11.04 I think you should add a cap to the Damage Reduction Cost (is it better a 10/+10 (CR +3) or a (10/--) (CR + 2). Hardness is too much better (it is good against Energy and can't be reduced (using the optional rule for DR)).

11.20 Spell Resistance: you should put a cap to it (CR +4.5 is Absolute SR to all spells) OR (perhaps better) make something like: None (CR +0), Low, Medium, High, Very High, Absolute (CR +5) where the SR is based on the CR (something like CR/2 + 11) (so if it's an hard encounter you have 50% of affecting it with spells)

11.22 If Touch Attacks are multiplied for the number of attacks, shouldn't Level Drain/Poison/Disease be multiplied?
 

So if I understand the Vermin type category properly, a giant bee gets a +0.5 CR bonus for being immune to mind-influencing affects, and –0.5 CR penalty for having no Intelligence score.

So the two modifiers effectively cancel each other other out?

Aside: I think rounding down CR fractions in all cases is the way to go. Andy Collins supported the idea, but I see it holding up less and less now. Moreover, rounding down should potentially allow more fractioned CR ratings (like CR 1/2; my rating for a small dog).

Small dog
+0.5 for HD.
+0.2 for Scent.
–0.5 for size.

Hmmm. A total of +0.2. Rounding down to lower than CR 1/4. That's new. What do you guys make of it?
 
Last edited:

Okay, looks like we have a hgue debate on our hands about the ghoul and ghast. UK tells me they're underrated in the book. By HIS system, however, they're overrated. After he fixed the numbers, the ghoul still comes out to CR 4 and the ghast to CR 6.

Now I KNOW they're SLIGHTLY underrated in the book at 1 and 3, but I find this to be overcompensation. These numbers imply that a ghoul is as tough as an ogre (laughable) and a ghast is TOUGHER than an ogre (also laughable). UK thinks that everyone would agree to the CR 4 ghoul and CR 6 ghast, but I am here to make my case.

A ghoul has 13 hit points, almost never hits with its deplorable attack bonus, and has very little going for it. The ogre can EASILY kill it with a single hit. Does this sound like an equal challenge? Put both against a Level 4 party. These numbers suggest that a party at Level 4 would expend 20% of their resources against a SINGLE ghoul. This is, of course, laughable at best.

I believe the ghoul to be CR 2, CR 3 MAXIMUM. To demonstrate, I have used ghouls on many occasions. They are one of my favorite monsters. I have NEVER seen a Level 2 or above have ANY challenge with a ghoul. By Level 3, ghouls are practically insignificant altogether. I have seen my PCs at Level 2 beat a ghast and SIX ghouls, and although that was a tough battle, they did win it barely. This also shows that a single ghoul is not a challenge for such a party.

As for the ghast, it is slightly better, so I might concede it to be EQUAL to an ogre considering it has the same hit points and some good attacks. MAYBE CR 5. Certainly not CR 6 or CR 7, though.

Thoughts, everybody?
 

Hello again mate! :)

xanatos said:
Brr... It's very powerful... What monsters do it? I want to try them on my players! :-)

None that you know...yet. ;)

...although the Neh-Thallgu in the ELH has poison that deals 'Half' damage.

xanatos said:
Other small notes...

Sure, fire away.

xanatos said:
11.14 You forgot the Disintegrate Immunity... I think that it's quite important.

Thanks I'll add that in.

xanatos said:
I hope you are not counting double some items... Golems and Demilich are immune to Spells and Su abilities... The immunity to Petrifaction, Death, Ability and Energy Drain and some other elements are (quite completly) included in these (Ok... Immunity doesn't cover Ex effects... But they are quite rare)

No I didn't count those double.

But I will be reviewing the Demilich and the varieties of Magic Immunity tonight.

xanatos said:
11.13 and 11.04 I think you should add a cap to the Damage Reduction Cost (is it better a 10/+10 (CR +3) or a (10/--) (CR + 2). Hardness is too much better (it is good against Energy and can't be reduced (using the optional rule for DR)).

Well you only have a problem with that when you wildly ignore the Design Parameters and Damage Reduction rules I advocate.

xanatos said:
11.20 Spell Resistance: you should put a cap to it (CR +4.5 is Absolute SR to all spells) OR (perhaps better) make something like: None (CR +0), Low, Medium, High, Very High, Absolute (CR +5) where the SR is based on the CR (something like CR/2 + 11) (so if it's an hard encounter you have 50% of affecting it with spells)

I won't be putting a cap on this, there are occasions when Magic Immunity is actually less powerful than Spell Resistance, but I don't want to have to explain all that now.

xanatos said:
11.22 If Touch Attacks are multiplied for the number of attacks, shouldn't Level Drain/Poison/Disease be multiplied?

They are....is that not clear? :o
 

Hiya mate! :)

Sonofapreacherman said:
So if I understand the Vermin type category properly, a giant bee gets a +0.5 CR bonus for being immune to mind-influencing affects, and –0.5 CR penalty for having no Intelligence score.

So the two modifiers effectively cancel each other other out?

Actually Non-Int = -1 (hence the -0.5 total)

However I am changing the Non-Ability scores

They are now:

Str = -2
Dex = -2
Con = +2
Int = -1.5

Sonofapreacherman said:
Aside: I think rounding down CR fractions in all cases is the way to go. Andy Collins supported the idea, but I see it holding up less and less now. Moreover, rounding down should potentially allow more fractioned CR ratings (like CR 1/2; my rating for a small dog).

Small dog
+0.5 for HD.
+0.2 for Scent.
–0.5 for size.

Hmmm. A total of +0.2. Rounding down to lower than CR 1/4. That's new. What do you guys make of it?

I'll review the 'round up or down' debate tonight.

I think it makes sense to round down, and is probably the final peice of the puzzle.

Incidently your small dog appraisal above would make it CR 1/2, remember CR +0.2 rounds down to 0. 0 = CR 1/2. See page 1.

...of course you forgot its +0.2 for movement and +0.1 for natural armour. :p
 

This is an alt.rakshasa, designed for use as a mortal/humanoid race with magic in their blood, rather than a strange and evil spirit creature from the outer planes. I'm working on a D&D setting, and Upper Krust's system is turning out to be invaluable in that - this rakshasa will eventually be turned into a mid-ECL PC race.

For right now, it's also intended as a measure of just how far the system can be pushed in terms of character power, and to test rounding one direction or the other. I have some comments added to that effect at the end.

Rakshasa

Elegant and charismatic, rakshasa are a race of shapeshifting, sentient tigers. Although there is some tendency to viciousness, most tales of their tendency to cruelty are merest prejudices, inspired by primitive fear of efficient predators. Just ask any rakshasa. Socially, they tend to be advisors and performers rather than leaders, and operate with maximum flair and pomp.

Medium Humanoid (Rakshasa)
Hit Dice: 4d8
Movement: 40 ft
AC: +1 natural
Attacks: primary 2 claws, secondary bite
Damage: claw 1d4
Face/Reach: 5 ft by 5 ft/5 ft
Special Abilities:
- Spells
- Detect Thoughts
- Alternate Form
- Scent
- Low-Light Vision
Racial BAB: +2 (progression as wizard)
Racial Saves: Fort +1, Ref +1, Will +3 (ability scores not factored)
Ability Scores: STR +2, DEX +4, CON +2, INT +2, WIS +2, CHA +6

Racial Skills (9 + "7 x INT bonus"): Bluff (CHA), Diplomacy (CHA), Disguise (CHA), Gather Information (CHA), Intimidate (CHA), Listen (WIS), Move Silently (DEX), Perform (CHA), Sense Motive (WIS)

Racial Feats: Spell Focus (Enchantment), Weapon Finesse (Claws)

Code:
[color=skyblue]CR   Tot    Item
2.2  2.2    Hit Dice: 4d8 humanoid
1.4  3.6    Integrated Spell Levels: sorcerer 4
0.1  3.7    Movement: +10 ft
0.1  3.8    Natural AC +1
0.2  4.0    Scent
0.1  4.1    Low-light vision (x2 distance in dim lighting)
0.02 4.12   Spell-like ability: Alter self at will (caster 4th)
0.04 4.16   Spell-like ability: Detect thoughts, always on (caster 4th)
0.8  4.96   Wealth: PC lvl 4

CR 4 (4.96)
ECL +4[/color]

Detect Thoughts (Su): A rakshasa can continuously detect thoughts as the spell cast by an 4th-level sorcerer (save DC 12 + INT bonus). He can suppress or resume this ability as a free action.

Spells: A rakshasa casts spells as a 4th-level sorcerer.

Alter Self (Su): A rakshasa can assume any humanoid form, or revert to his own form, as a standard action. This ability works like the alter self spell cast by a 4th-level sorcerer.

Skills: When using Alter Self, the rakshasa gains an additional +10 circumstance bonus to Disguise checks. If reading an opponent’s mind, his circumstance bonus to Bluff, Disguise and Sense Motive checks increases by a further +4.

Comments

Without Upper Krust's system, I would have placed this one somewhere between ECL +4 and +5.

Rak 4/sor 1 .vs. sor 5 = Rakshasa wins by a good margin
Rak 5/sor 1 .vs. sor 6 or ftr 1/sor 5 = non-Rakshasa wins

The question becomes: as a DM, do you care if there are optimal choices in your campaign? If you prefer there not be, go with ECL +5; if you don't mind munchkin characters, the rakshasa works better at ECL +4... and if you allow race levelling (per Savage Species), the sorcerer who ISN'T a rakshasa probably wasn't paying attention.

So, regarding rounding... I think that for core D&D, which doesn't sweat the small stuff so much, rounding down is probably the best solution for this particular race. It would certainly work best that way in the setting I'm building it for!

By the same token, however, at ECL +4, the rakshasa is an out-and-out better sorcerer than any human or elf at equivalent level, and I don't care what level you run that against. A human sor-20 versus a rakshasa sor-16 is not as good. Some DMs are uncomfortable with that, so while you might default to rounding down, a paragraph explaining the reasoning and/or other options for stingier campaigns, would likely not be out of place.

And at 4.96, the system very neatly nailed my thoughts on the creature :D. Which goes to show that when I'm designing something as a DM, the system works beautifully; it's only when I start looking for break points as a player that it starts to grind (either over or under-estimating CR).
 

Okay, two questions.

First, why are you penalizing vermin twice? The CR modifier for vermin is already +0.5/HD. I would think that modifier already takes their Intelligence into account. Vermin are vermin. None of them have an Intelligence rating by virtue of being what they are (which, as I said above, is already penalized with a low CR modifier per Hit Dice). To attach vermin with a –1.5 modifer after that just seems excessive.

Second, any new thoughts on the barbarian0/sorcerer0 apprentice-level CR rating at 1st-level? In that particular example, you are almost getting 2 levels for the price of 1 at 1st level.

My first thought is to treat them as whichever 2 non-player character classes best approximate their abilities. In this case, that would be an adept and warrior; meaning a CR of +1.2 (+1.4 with wealth factored in). But rounding their CR down (or up for that matter) still does not make them any more threatening than a single classed 1st level character.

What say you folks?
 
Last edited:

Forgot these questions as well. Will "Blood Drain" be added to your list of Generic Abilities? Does Attach really deserve a CR rating on that list?
 

Status
Not open for further replies.
Remove ads

Top