Revised Challenge Ratings/Encounter Levels (pdf)

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Anubis mate!

Actually, what I did is called "demonstrating absurdity by being absurd". My post was a COUNTER to someone else's post, someone who used the rules to make a super-powerful creature that had a low CR/EL. I merely did the opposite. That was merely my proof that the ability score thing did NOT break the system.

My PROOF that ability scores should NOT be counted is in characters that are Levels 1-3. This is, always was, and always will be the absolute proof. To estimate that a Level 1 character of ANY core race is anything but CR 1 is absurd, yet by counting ability scores, the system has us believe that a Level 1 character could potentially be as powerful as an ogre, which is ludicrous.

Any which way, sorry for bringing that up again, folks, but I had to refute this guy for his lackluster attempt at trying to make ME look like the one using numbers to break the system.

You just wouldn't let it lie would you!?

 

[seasong]

I like the new look . I haven't tried building with it, but should the Create Spawn be based on HD or CR? (that is, is the delay in the Create Spawn make it less of a problem than summoning?).

 

[Anubis]

First off, lemme begin by saying I STRONGLY suggest rounding ALL numbers DOWN with NO exceptions. I have run tests, and the numbers come out far more accurate at all levels by rounding down in all cases as per the D&D standard. If you do not, some of the weaker monsters especially come out horribly overrated, most notably (so far) the Hell Hound (CR 4.8) which comes out at a ridiculous CR 5/EL 10 when rounding normally, but is a slightly less ridiculous CR 4/EL 9 if you round down only. Another good example is the Medium-Size Skeleton (CR 1.7) that comes out at a preposterous CR 2/EL 5 if rounded normally, but works out to be a slightly better CR 1/EL 1. Another example of a monster that rounds badly the way UK suggests are the Ghoul (CR 4.6) that rounds normally to CR 5/EL 10, but rounds down to CR 4/EL 9, and although both numbers are pretty bad, the latter is much closer. Also see the Goblin (CR 0.8) that rounds normally to CR 1/EL 1 but rounds down to CR 0.5/EL 0.5, which is much better; the hobgoblin works out the same way. Oh, two more examples are the Dretch (CR 4.526) thats rounds to CR 5/EL 10 but rounds down to CR 4/EL 9 and the Lemure (CR 3.75) that rounds to CR 4/EL 9 but rounds down to CR 3/EL 7.

Since rounding up and down at higher levels does not have much of a chance of changing the EL, the low-level numbers are the key to deciding which is more accurate. As I have shown, rounding down is the ONLY way to get an accurate reading on many low-level monsters. There are plenty more examples, but I feel that the above examples are sufficient to prove my point to be true.

Howdy Upper_Krust.

Could you break down a giant bee for me?

So far I get:

+1.5 for 3 HD.
+0.2 for natural armor.
+0.8 for fly (good)
+0.6 for poison (I think; the poison rules seemed unclear).

Using the poison will kill the bee, so that should modify their CR significantly.

Right now, however, a giant bee weighs in at CR 3.1.

That seems severely overrated. The Monster Manual rates them at CR 1/2, and while I know not to take that estimation seriously, the two values still represent a huge disparity.

Thanks.

Edit: I forgot to add +0.5 for Immune to mind-influencing effects, bringing the new total for a giant bee up to CR 3.6. Rounding that value up to CR 4 seems even more ridiculous.

Yikes. What now?

Re-edit: I just uncovered another bonus of +0.2 for 20 ft. faster than 60 ft Medium-size fly speed, creating a grand total of CR 3.8. Still CR 4, but now a lot more solidly.

Curious, while we're on the subject, do the movement bonuses work in reverse? For example, would a Medium-size creature with a 20 ft non-fly speed suffer a –0.1 CR modifier?

Lemme give this a shot . . .

Giant Bee

3 Vermin Hit Dice: CR +1.5
+2 Natural Armor: CR +0.2
Flight (Good): CR +0.8
Movement +20 ft.: CR +0.2
Poison: CR +1.2
Vermin: CR -0.5
Kamikaze Attack: Ad Hoc CR/2

Giant Bee: CR 1.7 --- (CR 2/EL 5 by UK's rounding) CR 1, EL 1 (if done properly)

Heh, there's another good example of why to round down and NOT round up!

Another quick question for you Upper_Crust.

How would you rate the attach and Blood Drain ability of the Stirge? CR +0.2 each?

For the Stirge I have...

+0.55 for Hit Dice.
+0.6 for fly (average)
–0.75 for Tiny size.
–0.1 for slower non-flight speed (assuming penalties work in reverse as movement bonuses)
+0.1 for faster flight speed.
+0.2 for Attach (subject to revision).
+0.2 for Blood Drain (subject to revision).
+0.2 for non-standard Weapon Finesse feat (beasts do not normally get feats).

This brings the stirge to a CR of 1.0 exactly (so far). Any disagreements with that Upper_Krust?

Stirge:

1 Beast Hit Die: CR +0.55
Tiny: CR -0.75
Flight (Average): CR +0.6
Movement +10 ft.: CR +0.1
Blood Drain: CR +0.9
1 Extra Feat: CR +0.2

Stirge: CR 1.6 --- (CR 2/EL 5 by UK's rounding) CR 1, EL 1 (if done properly)

I did not count the attach ability because, unlike similar abilities in other creatures, there is little to no benefit from it. There are as many penalties as there are bonuses and it does not really make the encounter any more difficult, especially since it can easily be killed in one hit, moreso after using this ability. This, however, further demonstrates the NECESSAITY to round down in ALL cases. For the blood drain ability, I took the normal base but only added half the normal value of the blood drain points.



In fact, I would be willing to bet there is not a single example anywhere in D&D where the creature is better rated by rounding up properly than it is when rounded down. Not a single example. Anyway, that's (based on the information) the ratings for those two and my presentation about rounding down.

Take it or leave it, but understand that rounding up almost always overestimates the enemy badly.

 

[seasong]

Hey Upper Krust, this is pretty minor, but...

Under 0. Ability Scores, an unrated CON is listed as +3 CR. On page 7, under 13. Type/Subtype, for the undead type, an unrated CON is listed as a +2.

 

[seasong]

Hound Revenant (Large Undead)
The soul of a damned individual, brought back to unlife by holy forces to wreak vengeance upon the forces of evil, the hound revenant is a weapon rarely used. Revenants are generally seen when there is a hell hole that good people need routed out and destroyed.

I started with a wolf, made it Large, changed its type to Undead, and then tied together some abilities to make it a terrifying force of the heavens. Well, in theory, anyway - I think a 13th level party would find it pitiful .

HD: 4d12 (26 hp)
Initiative: +1 (+1 initiative)
Speed: 60 ft
AC: 14 (-1 size, +1 DEX, +4 natural)
Attacks: Bite +6 melee
Damage: 1d8+4 bite
Face/Reach: 5 ft by 10 ft/5 ft
Special Attacks: Trip, Breath Weapon
Special Qualities: Scent, Create Spawn*, Turn Resistance +8, DR 2/-
Saves: Fort +1/-, Ref +2, Will +4
Abilities: STR 18, DEX 13, CON -, INT 10, WIS 10, CHA 10
Skills: 34 (wilderness lore, sense motive, others?)
Feats: 2 (track, spring attack)
CR 13

* Whenever the hound revenant kills a person, a new hound revenant spawns from the corpse within 1d4 rounds. This can be prevented by a good-aligned individual blessing the corpse prior to the spawning. Hound revenants all disappear when their goal (as set by whatever heavenly force set them in motion) is accomplished.

[color=skyblue] CR     Item
 0.8    0. STR +8
 0.2    0. DEX +2
 3.0    0. Unrated CON
 0.0    1. No Class Levels
 0.0    2. No Extra Feats
 2.4    3. Hit Dice: 4 intelligent undead
 0.0    4. No Integrated Spell Levels
 0.2    5. Movement +20 ft
 0.0    6. No Multiple Attacks
 0.4    7. Natural Armor +4
 0.0    8. No NPC Class Levels
 1.5    9. Large Size
 0.0    10. No Extra Skill Points
 1.1    11.02. Breath Weapon (4d6 sonic, 40 ft cone, at will)
 1.3    11.03. Create Spawn, 1d4 rounds, Hound Revenant*
 0.4    11.13. Hardness 2/-
 0.4    11.23. Turn resistance +8
 0.0    12. No Templates
-1.0    13. Undead Type (Unrated CON already accounted for)
 0.0    14. No Wealth
 
12.7    TOTAL (CR 13)[/color]

 

[seasong]

So, there's my experiment in poor design . The CR simply ends up exceeding the HD by too much, meaning that most of the abilities are weak for the CR... there's just an awful lot of them, and the numbers add up.

Hm. Perhaps, on page 8, 3rd paragraph under "Monster Creation", you might indicate that a good monster design should have at least one factor that provides 1/3rd of the total CR .

Still, it's a pretty neat critter, and it would be a holy terror against PCs of 4th level or under... but at about 5th to 8th, it becomes reasonably easy, and at 9th level and up one of these creatures is really a cake walk.

I'd peg the CR at about 6-7.

 

[Anubis]

Hound Revenant (Large Undead)
The soul of a damned individual, brought back to unlife by holy forces to wreak vengeance upon the forces of evil, the hound revenant is a weapon rarely used. Revenants are generally seen when there is a hell hole that good people need routed out and destroyed.

I started with a wolf, made it Large, changed its type to Undead, and then tied together some abilities to make it a terrifying force of the heavens. Well, in theory, anyway - I think a 13th level party would find it pitiful .

HD: 4d12 (26 hp)
Initiative: +1 (+1 initiative)
Speed: 60 ft
AC: 14 (-1 size, +1 DEX, +4 natural)
Attacks: Bite +6 melee
Damage: 1d8+4 bite
Face/Reach: 5 ft by 10 ft/5 ft
Special Attacks: Trip, Breath Weapon
Special Qualities: Scent, Create Spawn*, Turn Resistance +8, DR 2/-
Saves: Fort +1/-, Ref +2, Will +4
Abilities: STR 18, DEX 13, CON -, INT 10, WIS 10, CHA 10
Skills: 34 (wilderness lore, sense motive, others?)
Feats: 2 (track, spring attack)
CR 13

* Whenever the hound revenant kills a person, a new hound revenant spawns from the corpse within 1d4 rounds. This can be prevented by a good-aligned individual blessing the corpse prior to the spawning. Hound revenants all disappear when their goal (as set by whatever heavenly force set them in motion) is accomplished.

[color=skyblue] CR     Item
 0.8    0. STR +8
 0.2    0. DEX +2
 3.0    0. Unrated CON
 0.0    1. No Class Levels
 0.0    2. No Extra Feats
 2.4    3. Hit Dice: 4 intelligent undead
 0.0    4. No Integrated Spell Levels
 0.2    5. Movement +20 ft
 0.0    6. No Multiple Attacks
 0.4    7. Natural Armor +4
 0.0    8. No NPC Class Levels
 1.5    9. Large Size
 0.0    10. No Extra Skill Points
 1.1    11.02. Breath Weapon (4d6 sonic, 40 ft cone, at will)
 1.3    11.03. Create Spawn, 1d4 rounds, Hound Revenant*
 0.4    11.13. Hardness 2/-
 0.4    11.23. Turn resistance +8
 0.0    12. No Templates
-1.0    13. Undead Type (Unrated CON already accounted for)
 0.0    14. No Wealth
 
12.7    TOTAL (CR 13)[/color]

I think you have miscalculated severely. I got CR 8.6 when I added everything up.

4 Intelligent Undead Hit Dice: CR +2.4
Large Size: CR +1.5
Movement: CR +0.2
+4 Natural Armor: CR +0.4
Trip Attack: CR +0.2
Breath Weapon: CR +1.1
Scent: CR +0.2
Create Spawn: CR +0.8
+8 Turn Resistance: CR +0.4
2 Hardness/DR: CR +0.4
Intelligent Undead: CR +1

CR 8.6 --- (CR 9/EL 13 by UK's rounding) CR 8/EL 13 (if done properly)

[Note: As I said, the CR differences only actually matter at lower levels. This still gives SOME proof, though, as even the creator said it looked like CR 6 or CR 7.]

Anyway, there you go!

 

[seasong]

The correct CR is 10.9. Changes are denoted in orange.

[color=skyblue]CR     Item
 0.8    0. STR +8
 0.2    0. DEX +2
 3.0    0. Unrated CON
 0.0    1. No Class Levels
 0.0    2. No Extra Feats
 2.4    3. Hit Dice: 4 intelligent undead
 0.0    4. No Integrated Spell Levels
 0.2    5. Movement +20 ft
 0.0    6. No Multiple Attacks
 0.4    7. Natural Armor +4
 0.0    8. No NPC Class Levels
 1.5    9. Large Size
 0.0    10. No Extra Skill Points
 1.1    11.02. Breath Weapon (4d6 sonic, 40 ft cone, at will)
[color=orange] 1.1    11.03. Create Spawn, 1d4 rounds, Hound Revenant*[/color]
[color=orange] 0.4    11.12 Scent, Trip[/color]
 0.4    11.13. Hardness 2/-
 0.4    11.23. Turn resistance +8
 0.0    12. No Templates
-1.0    13. Undead Type (Unrated CON already accounted for)
 0.0    14. No Wealth

10.9    TOTAL (CR 11)[/color]

Note: I used proper rounding, rather than alternate systems of rounding, as I am testing the fringes of this system, and not alternate systems. I also included ability scores, for the same reasons. Thank you for pointing out (if indirectly) the real misses: including Scent and Trip, and adding the -1.0 instead of subtracting it.

Originally posted by Anubis
Anyway, there you go!

Indeed.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Seasong mate!

I like the new look .

Finally.

I hope its a lot clearer for everyone?

I haven't tried building with it, but should the Create Spawn be based on HD or CR? (that is, is the delay in the Create Spawn make it less of a problem than summoning?).

Not quite sure I follow what you are saying?

Technically to create spawn you need a victim, whereas you don't with summoning.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Anubis mate!

First off, lemme begin by saying I STRONGLY suggest rounding ALL numbers DOWN with NO exceptions. *SNIP*.

I think you may have a point with regards rounding down the final number. Of course this is only really a problem at very low CR anyway, but perhaps its worth looking into.