Revised Challenge Ratings/Encounter Levels (pdf)

[Upper_Krust]

HI seasong mate!

This is an alt.rakshasa, designed for use as a mortal/humanoid race with magic in their blood, rather than a strange and evil spirit creature from the outer planes. I'm working on a D&D setting, and Upper Krust's system is turning out to be invaluable in that - this rakshasa will eventually be turned into a mid-ECL PC race.

Appreciate the love dude.

For right now, it's also intended as a measure of just how far the system can be pushed in terms of character power, and to test rounding one direction or the other. I have some comments added to that effect at the end.

Rakshasa

Elegant and charismatic, rakshasa are a race of shapeshifting, sentient tigers. Although there is some tendency to viciousness, most tales of their tendency to cruelty are merest prejudices, inspired by primitive fear of efficient predators. Just ask any rakshasa. Socially, they tend to be advisors and performers rather than leaders, and operate with maximum flair and pomp.

Medium Humanoid (Rakshasa)

Ability Scores: STR +2, DEX +4, CON +2, INT +2, WIS +2, CHA +6

It might be prudent to include ability score bonuses in the make up of any ECL.

Without Upper Krust's system, I would have placed this one somewhere between ECL +4 and +5.

Rak 4/sor 1 .vs. sor 5 = Rakshasa wins by a good margin
Rak 5/sor 1 .vs. sor 6 or ftr 1/sor 5 = non-Rakshasa wins

The question becomes: as a DM, do you care if there are optimal choices in your campaign? If you prefer there not be, go with ECL +5; if you don't mind munchkin characters, the rakshasa works better at ECL +4... and if you allow race levelling (per Savage Species), the sorcerer who ISN'T a rakshasa probably wasn't paying attention.

So, regarding rounding... I think that for core D&D, which doesn't sweat the small stuff so much, rounding down is probably the best solution for this particular race. It would certainly work best that way in the setting I'm building it for!

By the same token, however, at ECL +4, the rakshasa is an out-and-out better sorcerer than any human or elf at equivalent level, and I don't care what level you run that against. A human sor-20 versus a rakshasa sor-16 is not as good. Some DMs are uncomfortable with that, so while you might default to rounding down, a paragraph explaining the reasoning and/or other options for stingier campaigns, would likely not be out of place.

And at 4.96, the system very neatly nailed my thoughts on the creature . Which goes to show that when I'm designing something as a DM, the system works beautifully; it's only when I start looking for break points as a player that it starts to grind (either over or under-estimating CR).

Well if we were to add your above ability scores to the ECL then round down we would be left with ECL 5.

 

[Anubis]

Okay, two questions.

First, why are you penalizing vermin twice? The CR modifier for vermin is already +0.5/HD. I would think that modifier already takes their Intelligence into account. Vermin are vermin. None of them have an Intelligence rating by virtue of being what they are (which, as I said above, is already penalized with a low CR modifier per Hit Dice). To attach vermin with a –1.5 modifer after that just seems excessive.

Vermin are not penalized twice. The Type modifier already includes that stuff. Do not add it twice.

Second, any new thoughts on the barbarian0/sorcerer0 apprentice-level CR rating at 1st-level? In that particular example, you are almost getting 2 levels for the price of 1 at 1st level.

My first thought is to treat them as whichever 2 non-player character classes best approximate their abilities. In this case, that would be an adept and warrior; meaning a CR of +1.2 (+1.4 with wealth factored in). But rounding their CR down (or up for that matter) still does not make them any more threatening than a single classed 1st level character.

What say you folks?

I don't see why ANY calculation is needed. They are Level 1 characters. A character with two apprentice classes is still character level 1. Treat them as such, making them CR 1 as normal. For those with two apprentice NPC classes, just take the highest value involved (a Warrior/Expert would be CR +0.6), *or* the average of the two (a Commoner/Warrior would be CR +0.5). This whole issue is, I think, a bit pedantic. Why? An apprentice multiclass is the same as a normal Level 1 character, half and half. The CR does not change. Besides, by level 2, the issue disappears altogether. Anyway, that should take care of that. I'm not even sure why this is an issue to begin with, to be honest, because the system kinda takes care of this matter all by itself.

Now let's get back to the subject of the ghouls and ghasts, seeing as this is the only real remaining problem that I can see in the system (at the moment).

 

[Anubis]

Forgot these questions as well. Will "Blood Drain" be added to your list of Generic Abilities? Does Attach really deserve a CR rating on that list?

I kinda already answered this pretty well I believe. Not sure if UK would agree, but a cursory glance should answer this well enough. First off, blood drain is ability damage, nothing more, so there is no need to count it seperately. Maybe a parameter but that's all. Anyway, as for the rest, here's what I had to say on the matter, and I quote:

"Stirge:

1 Beast Hit Die: CR +0.55
Tiny: CR -0.75
Flight (Average): CR +0.6
Movement +10 ft.: CR +0.1
Blood Drain: CR +0.9
1 Extra Feat: CR +0.2

Stirge: CR 1.6 --- (CR 2/EL 5 by UK's rounding) CR 1, EL 1 (if done properly)

I did not count the attach ability because, unlike similar abilities in other creatures, there is little to no benefit from it. There are as many penalties as there are bonuses and it does not really make the encounter any more difficult, especially since it can easily be killed in one hit, moreso after using this ability. This, however, further demonstrates the NECESSAITY to round down in ALL cases. For the blood drain ability, I took the normal base but only added half the normal value of the blood drain points."

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

Okay, two questions.

Sure, fire away.

First, why are you penalizing vermin twice? The CR modifier for vermin is already +0.5/HD.

Thats down to elements like hp; BAB; saves; feats and skills.

Non Intelligence is something completely different.

I would think that modifier already takes their Intelligence into account.

No.

Vermin are vermin.

No. The vermins hp, BAB and saves are vermin. Non Intelligence is like a template.

None of them have an Intelligence rating by virtue of being what they are (which, as I said above, is already penalized with a low CR modifier per Hit Dice). To attach vermin with a –1.5 modifer after that just seems excessive.

They are mindless though, and thus wholly predictable.

Second, any new thoughts on the barbarian0/sorcerer0 apprentice-level CR rating at 1st-level? In that particular example, you are almost getting 2 levels for the price of 1 at 1st level.

My first thought is to treat them as whichever 2 non-player character classes best approximate their abilities. In this case, that would be an adept and warrior; meaning a CR of +1.2 (+1.4 with wealth factored in). But rounding their CR down (or up for that matter) still does not make them any more threatening than a single classed 1st level character.

What say you folks?

Is there some sort of problem with just making it CR 1?

 

[seasong]

It might be prudent to include ability score bonuses in the make up of any ECL.

Oh yeah, I forgot to de-apply my house rule* when I rewrote it for this . Without the house rule, he's definitely ECL +5.

* Ability score bonuses affect the min/max/avg, but don't affect the point buy costs of ability scores; thus, a rakshasa could buy a 24 CHA, but buying an 18 would not give him a 24. The point buy system I'm using is a 1:1 ratio, with 74 points.

Well if we were to add your above ability scores to the ECL then round down we would be left with ECL 5.

Alter all of the ability scores to +0. Now pretend I just said everything I said about the rakshasa, again . I think the 4.96 version (with +0 in all ability scores) is still a questionable zone, depending on the DM's goal.

 

[Sonofapreacherman]

Match any single class 1st-level character against a 1st-level barbarian0/sorcerer0 and the barbarian0/sorcerer0 will clean up with Hit Points to spare. The current incarnation of the CR system does not take that into account.

As for Vermin, you missed the point. What I'm saying is ... why are vermin being penalized at all (with a type modifier accounting for a non-exisitant Intelligence score) when their Hit Dice modifier already accounts for what they are. Meaning, all vermin (without exception) have an Intelligence of "—". That feature of their "type" is presumably already factored into giving them a Hit Dice modifier of +0.5/HD.

Edit: This second point (regarding vermin) was just cleared up by Upper_Krust.

Posting fast and furious as usual...

 

[Upper_Krust]

I kinda already answered this pretty well I believe. Not sure if UK would agree, but a cursory glance should answer this well enough. First off, blood drain is ability damage, nothing more, so there is no need to count it seperately. Maybe a parameter but that's all. Anyway, as for the rest, here's what I had to say on the matter, and I quote:

"Stirge:

1 Beast Hit Die: CR +0.55
Tiny: CR -0.75
Flight (Average): CR +0.6
Movement +10 ft.: CR +0.1
Blood Drain: CR +0.9
1 Extra Feat: CR +0.2

Stirge: CR 1.6 --- (CR 2/EL 5 by UK's rounding) CR 1, EL 1 (if done properly)

I did not count the attach ability because, unlike similar abilities in other creatures, there is little to no benefit from it. There are as many penalties as there are bonuses and it does not really make the encounter any more difficult, especially since it can easily be killed in one hit, moreso after using this ability. This, however, further demonstrates the NECESSAITY to round down in ALL cases. For the blood drain ability, I took the normal base but only added half the normal value of the blood drain points."

Blood drain is technically +1.2, however I would limit it to +0.8 because it becomes sated after draining four points. Four points (total) would be 0.2 x 4, hence +0.8.

 

[seasong]

Appreciate the love dude.

Then get cracking on publishing this! Seriously, I'm a guaranteed sale at this point, just so I'll have a "legal" copy of the appendix.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello again mate!

Match any single class 1st-level character against a 1st-level barbarian0/sorcerer0 and the barbarian0/sorcerer0 will clean up with Hit Points to spare. The current incarnation of the CR system does not take that into account.

I think the problem is with the Apprentice sorceror. Its unbalanced.

As for Vermin, you missed the point. What I'm saying is ... why are vermin being penalized at all (with a type modifier accounting for a non-exisitant Intelligence score) when their Hit Dice modifier already accounts for what they are. Meaning, all vermin (without exception) have an Intelligence of "—". That feature of their "type" is presumably already factored into giving them a Hit Dice modifier of +0.5/HD.

Edit: This second point (regarding vermin) was just cleared up by Upper_Krust.

Posting fast and furious as usual...

 

[Anabstercorian]

Anubis, please stop shouting. If you must shout, at least spell your words properly. Etiquette.