Revised Challenge Ratings/Encounter Levels (pdf)

[Anubis]

Anubis, please stop shouting. If you must shout, at least spell your words properly. Etiquette.

Um, I'm NOT shouting. What the heck are you talking about?

 

[Al]

Actually, what I did is called "demonstrating absurdity by being absurd". My post was a COUNTER to someone else's post, someone who used the rules to make a super-powerful creature that had a low CR/EL. I merely did the opposite. That was merely my proof that the ability score thing did NOT break the system.

My PROOF that ability scores should NOT be counted is in characters that are Levels 1-3. This is, always was, and always will be the absolute proof. To estimate that a Level 1 character of ANY core race is anything but CR 1 is absurd, yet by counting ability scores, the system has us believe that a Level 1 character could potentially be as powerful as an ogre, which is ludicrous.

Any which way, sorry for bringing that up again, folks, but I had to refute this guy for his lackluster attempt at trying to make ME look like the one using numbers to break the system.

Fair point. I have not been following this (evidently long-running) saga between yourself, U_K, Seasong and Anab. From the responses of the others mentioned, it seems to be too intractable for me to disentangle.

However, I can attack your PROOF. Ignoring the fact that, on balance, a straight-18 powerful first level character can indeed match an ogre in terms of relative power (if not in a stand-up fight), your PROOF is lacking in that it is a non sequitur.

Your assertion that one cannot estimate a level one character as anything other than a CR1 misses the point. CR is a measure of power. Higher ability scores generally means a greater measure of power. If anything, I would argue that ability scores should be used to estimate PC levels as much as monsters. Of course, this will not always be representative, as your counter-example (and the original poster's example illustrate) but the trend is upwards.

Where is the weak link in this chain of logic?
CR is a measure of power (true)
Higher ability scores generally indicate more power (true)
Therefore, higher ability scores should be reflected in a higher CR.

Oh, and don't use capital letters. I'm ambivalent, but some posters can get upset.

 

[Sonofapreacherman]

All right. Check this scenario out.

A party of four typical 1st level characters encounter two 2nd level "fighter class" hobgoblins.

The characters are each CR 1 and therefore PEL 1.

The CR for one of those hobgoblins is 2 and therefore EL 5. Because there are two of them it becomes EL 7.

The party arcane spellcaster casts sleep and rolls the average amount of Hit Dice. Both hobgoblins fail their Will saves and go down for 1 minute. The party kills them in their sleep.

Their reward: 2400 XP.

What the heck? 600 XP each for that? Or worse yet ... 2400 XP for a solitary arcane spellcaster (which is also conceivable using the current system). Something is not right here. Even if the spell failed and the party got involved in melee with the two hobgoblins, 600 XP each seems way too much for such a simple encounter.

A think a change is needed. This is what I suggest. Rather than "averaging" party level, what about calculating PEL the same way EL is calculated for monsters.

Meaning a party of four typical 1st level characters (CR 1 individually) would become PEL 5 (EL +4 for 4 opponents/party members).

Suddenly the above hobgoblin encounter falls to 600 XP or 150 XP each. Infinitely more reasonable (although it still does not solve the solitary arcane spellcaster imbalance who gets 2400 XP all at once).

Any thoughts?

 

[xanatos]

11.22 If Touch Attacks are multiplied for the number of attacks, shouldn't Level Drain/Poison/Disease be multiplied?

They are....is that not clear?

If with "clear" you mean "there is a single example in the text" then yes, it's clear! I wasn't able to find the general rule! Perhaps you could add rules for Beholder and other monsters that "Multicast" (and perhaps even rules for monsters that can "multibreath")

On the Magic Immunity... I think it should be connected to the HD of the creature (so a variable adder, +0.x for each HD)... Why? Because if you take the Standard Party (Fighter, Thief, Cleric and Wizard/Sorcerere) a Magical Immune creature will take away probably less than 1/3 of the power of the Cleric and perhaps 2/3 of the power of the Wizard (he can still Buff, but he can't directly attach), so a total of less than 1 player... So you will have a party of 3 PC instead of 4... An example... Take a Goblin with Magic Immunity... And this is true at least till level 20 (Special Abilities of Magical Weapons probably become much more common and powerful after this level, so they must be factored)... A Goblin with Magical Immunity is still a Goblin! Ok... It's a little more powerful, but not too much... How much will his CR raise? Probably he will be a CR 1 creature (and about the fact that you shouldn't give Magic Immunity to Goblins... Think about Weave Elementals... Small Weave Elemental (with 2HD) (the Weave is the magical energy of FR and is diffused everywhere (but you surely know) They could be immune to magic (they are made of magic!)).

Other small things...

11.23 Turn Resistance should be capped at CR +1 (the cost of "Can Be Turned")

11.25 Perhaps you could add Drow to the Light Sensitivity (they are quite common enemies... Perhaps because this was the Year of the Drow in FR)

Magical Items
Natural Armor: Perhaps it should be a little more expensive than Standard Enchantment... Ok... It isn't good against Touch Attacks, but it stacks with Standard Armor and Shield, and it's invisible (so no one will know that you are "protected"). Perhaps 1500?

Bye

 

[Anubis]

Fair point. I have not been following this (evidently long-running) saga between yourself, U_K, Seasong and Anab. From the responses of the others mentioned, it seems to be too intractable for me to disentangle.

However, I can attack your PROOF. Ignoring the fact that, on balance, a straight-18 powerful first level character can indeed match an ogre in terms of relative power (if not in a stand-up fight), your PROOF is lacking in that it is a non sequitur.

Your assertion that one cannot estimate a level one character as anything other than a CR1 misses the point. CR is a measure of power. Higher ability scores generally means a greater measure of power. If anything, I would argue that ability scores should be used to estimate PC levels as much as monsters. Of course, this will not always be representative, as your counter-example (and the original poster's example illustrate) but the trend is upwards.

Where is the weak link in this chain of logic?
CR is a measure of power (true)
Higher ability scores generally indicate more power (true)
Therefore, higher ability scores should be reflected in a higher CR.

Oh, and don't use capital letters. I'm ambivalent, but some posters can get upset.

If you had been following this discussion, you would see that I already successfully dismissed your "logic" long ago. Seeing as I have other things to take care of (the ghouls and ghasts), I'll let you go back and read the thousand some odd posts that generate this discussion rather than getting into this yet again.

 

[Anubis]

All right. Check this scenario out.

A party of four typical 1st level characters encounter two 2nd level "fighter class" hobgoblins.

The characters are each CR 1 and therefore PEL 1.

The CR for one of those hobgoblins is 2 and therefore EL 5. Because there are two of them it becomes EL 7.

The party arcane spellcaster casts sleep and rolls the average amount of Hit Dice. Both hobgoblins fail their Will saves and go down for 1 minute. The party kills them in their sleep.

Their reward: 2400 XP.

What the heck? 600 XP each for that? Or worse yet ... 2400 XP for a solitary arcane spellcaster (which is also conceivable using the current system). Something is not right here. Even if the spell failed and the party got involved in melee with the two hobgoblins, 600 XP each seems way too much for such a simple encounter.

A think a change is needed. This is what I suggest. Rather than "averaging" party level, what about calculating PEL the same way EL is calculated for monsters.

Meaning a party of four typical 1st level characters (CR 1 individually) would become PEL 5 (EL +4 for 4 opponents/party members).

Suddenly the above hobgoblin encounter falls to 600 XP or 150 XP each. Infinitely more reasonable (although it still does not solve the solitary arcane spellcaster imbalance who gets 2400 XP all at once).

Any thoughts?

A hobgoblin with 1 level of fighter is CR 1, not CR 2.

Heh, I warned UK about this, but I guess now he'll listen to meabout this problem.

You see, hobgoblins do NOT have Humanoid Hit Dice. In the book, they have 1 level of warrior. Their CR is thus 0.8, rounding of course to 0 (meaning CR 1/2). The actual CR of the hobgoblin itself, as a race, is 0.2, meaning it is an ECL 0 race. As such, a hobgoblin with 1 fighter level is CR 1.2, rounded to CR 1. Two hobgoblins would then be EL 3.

Anyway, the same goes for goblins and orcs as well. Goblins are actually CR 0.2, and orcs are CR 0, once you take away their one level of warrior.

Anyway, UK, perhaps you should address this soon.

 

[Sonofapreacherman]

Anubis.

You seem to have a flare for misinterpreting every post I make. I know hobgoblins advance as character class. Hence my example with two 2nd level "fighter class" hobgoblins. It's right there in your quote. All you have to do is read it. Thus, two 2nd level "fighter class" hobgoblins with NPC wealth are 1.8 each. Add in Darkvision, and you get CR 2, not CR 1.

Please read my examples more carefully in the future.

 

[seasong]

Fair point. I have not been following this (evidently long-running) saga between yourself, U_K, Seasong and Anab. From the responses of the others mentioned, it seems to be too intractable for me to disentangle.

Hey now, I wasn't in that . I just kind of accidentally stuck my foot in it, sort of like my mouth .

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

All right. Check this scenario out.

A party of four typical 1st level characters encounter two 2nd level "fighter class" hobgoblins.

The characters are each CR 1 and therefore PEL 1.

The CR for one of those hobgoblins is 2 and therefore EL 5. Because there are two of them it becomes EL 7.

The party arcane spellcaster casts sleep and rolls the average amount of Hit Dice. Both hobgoblins fail their Will saves and go down for 1 minute. The party kills them in their sleep.

Their reward: 2400 XP.

What the heck? 600 XP each for that? Or worse yet ... 2400 XP for a solitary arcane spellcaster (which is also conceivable using the current system). Something is not right here. Even if the spell failed and the party got involved in melee with the two hobgoblins, 600 XP each seems way too much for such a simple encounter.

A think a change is needed. This is what I suggest. Rather than "averaging" party level, what about calculating PEL the same way EL is calculated for monsters.

Meaning a party of four typical 1st level characters (CR 1 individually) would become PEL 5 (EL +4 for 4 opponents/party members).

Suddenly the above hobgoblin encounter falls to 600 XP or 150 XP each. Infinitely more reasonable (although it still does not solve the solitary arcane spellcaster imbalance who gets 2400 XP all at once).

Any thoughts?

The current rules do seem to inflate CR slightly too much at low levels, especially 1st-level.

Not sure as to your solution, that might backfire at higher levels.

I'll have a think about it, I am sure there is a simple solution.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi xanatos mate!

They are....is that not clear?

If with "clear" you mean "there is a single example in the text" then yes, it's clear! I wasn't able to find the general rule![/QUOTE]

I have already addressed this problem. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.

Perhaps you could add rules for Beholder and other monsters that "Multicast" (and perhaps even rules for monsters that can "multibreath")

The Beholder is no longer OGL hence the reason I have the Yrthak as the Ray example.

On the Magic Immunity... I think it should be connected to the HD of the creature (so a variable adder, +0.x for each HD)... Why? Because if you take the Standard Party (Fighter, Thief, Cleric and Wizard/Sorcerere) a Magical Immune creature will take away probably less than 1/3 of the power of the Cleric and perhaps 2/3 of the power of the Wizard (he can still Buff, but he can't directly attach), so a total of less than 1 player... So you will have a party of 3 PC instead of 4... An example... Take a Goblin with Magic Immunity... And this is true at least till level 20 (Special Abilities of Magical Weapons probably become much more common and powerful after this level, so they must be factored)... A Goblin with Magical Immunity is still a Goblin! Ok... It's a little more powerful, but not too much... How much will his CR raise? Probably he will be a CR 1 creature (and about the fact that you shouldn't give Magic Immunity to Goblins... Think about Weave Elementals... Small Weave Elemental (with 2HD) (the Weave is the magical energy of FR and is diffused everywhere (but you surely know) They could be immune to magic (they are made of magic!)).

I haven't 100% settled on how I will change Magic Immunity but I am wary with Balancing it to Hit Dice. I think it provides a set rate but remember the design parameters suggest that no creature have a single ability valued at more than half its total CR.

Probably +0.5/Spell level-immunity.
+5 Magic Immunity: spells and SU abilities (set; as with Golem)
+10 Magic Immunity: spells and SU abilities (own spells still work on you, as Demilich*)

*Although the demilich is still vulnerable to a few spells so its CR modifier is slightly lower.

Other small things...

11.23 Turn Resistance should be capped at CR +1 (the cost of "Can't Be Turned")

Indeed.

11.25 Perhaps you could add Drow to the Light Sensitivity (they are quite common enemies... Perhaps because this was the Year of the Drow in FR)

Not sure I follow you here mate?

Magical Items
Natural Armor: Perhaps it should be a little more expensive than Standard Enchantment... Ok... It isn't good against Touch Attacks, but it stacks with Standard Armor and Shield, and it's invisible (so no one will know that you are "protected"). Perhaps 1500?

I am happy with this at 1000, same as armour. They may stack but then so does the Natural Armour and Armour worn by a monster.

Thanks for the feedback mate, much appreciated.