Revised Challenge Ratings/Encounter Levels (pdf)

[demiurgeastaroth]

Re: ECL calculation and Ogres (no I'm not finished yet )

Factoring the ogres ability scores means deducting +1 from size.

Since the size also factors Str +8; Con +4 and Dex -2 (Total +10)

The Ogres ECL is probably 5 (off the top of my head).

As far as I can see it balances pretty well with a 5th-level character.

As mentioned in my previous post, I think ECL6 might not be enough.
I did have an ECL 6 Ogre in my group (standard point buy, standard equipment), and he was outperforming the pure fighters. He did have slighly lower hit points, but that didn't make up for the dramatic increase in damage he inflicted (especially since, with his natural armour, his AC was better).
His will save, was no worse than the other fighters really, his reflex only slightly worse than the fighters. His INT obviously wa slower, but that was a roleplaying bonus!
The problem here, though, isn't stat points in general - it's the massive benefit that STR gives. I personally think it should probably be valued higher - perhaps twice as high - as the other stats (and this should be accounted for in the cost of size, too).

Of course there is always the problem of getting ogre sized magic items (notably weapons).

Well, magic items are supposed to resize to their wielder - it says nothing about being within a particular size group. You take something off a halfling, or a dragon, and you can use it. It's only mundane items they need to worry about.

<just one more to go...>

 

[demiurgeastaroth]

Re: ECL calculation and Demons

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Originally posted by demiurgeastaroth
That's true, but the points he makes are valid for both even if the method differs.
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Not entirely, given my CR/EL relationship.

The methodology he uses obviously can't work with your system, but I think budding creature designers should bear his points in mind. Once they have worked out a creatures CR, they should then use a method similar to his to see if the final creature is actually reasonable.

I am beginning to suspect that a number of your creatures CRs are inflated because they have a wide array of spell like abilities, but will only get to use a few of them (I'm thinking of Demons and Devils particularly, because I have a lot of experience of using them - some of which have CR's in the MM which are higher than they should be in the MM, too (can anyone say Vrock)).

In this case, the CR's might well be a good representation of ECL (where the full value of all those abilities should be assessed).
I think having a huge range of spell-like abilities is of little value to a monster, if it's only around long enough to use 3 of them.
(And the hit points and fighting ability of most demons ensure sthis will be the case - their high AC & SR is the only thing that makes them last as long as they do - which isn't long at the levels they are often encountered.)
Creatures should pay something for the extra flexibility, yes, but if they have as many abilities as the fiends, I don't think they should pay full value for all those abilities. (As monsters - as PCs they should.)

Well after Fast Healing and Regeneration the only hurdle seems to be certain applications of spell-like abilities.

Don't worry, I'm sure I'll find something else to moan about

 

[Anubis]

Re: Re: ECL ability scores and giants

I'm not convinced. I think for a lot of creatures, especially ones with STR and CON exceeding that gained from size, they have to be considered - because a lot of threat from many of those creatures comes purely from those two stats (and size, which is already figured).

<snip>

The problem with actually factoring in ability scores comes at Levels 1-3, as I have shown and proven time and again. Under no circumstance is a Level 1 party going to be PEL 9 (each PC CR 4) no matter how high those ability scores are. As it stands, WITHOUT factoring in the ability scores, those really strong creatures like giants come out accurate. Trust me on that, I've used them.

That's why UK said those factors aren't necessary. By the time they COUNT, the increase in PC CR/PEL balances it out, and the differences are negligible.

The only time there is a problem is with super over-inflted scores, like if you gave a kobold Str 30 and Con 30. With the more powerful creatures, size and HD can explain away the ability scores.

As mentioned in my previous post, I think ECL6 might not be enough.
I did have an ECL 6 Ogre in my group (standard point buy, standard equipment), and he was outperforming the pure fighters. He did have slighly lower hit points, but that didn't make up for the dramatic increase in damage he inflicted (especially since, with his natural armour, his AC was better).

Um, an ogre by itself with no levels is CR 4, making it an EL 9. Where did you get this EL 6 stuff?

 

[demiurgeastaroth]

Re: Re: Re: ECL ability scores and giants

Um, an ogre by itself with no levels is CR 4, making it an EL 9. Where did you get this EL 6 stuff?

I said ECL 6. This was before seeing the CR/EL document - the standard rules. According to the DMG, they are ECL 5. I wasn't cnvicned, bumped them up to ECL 6, and still thought it might not be enough - a suspicion borne out in playtest.
Of course, I'm not so rash as to consider that proof, but to me it is compelling.

Darren

 

[demiurgeastaroth]

Re: Re: Re: ECL ability scores and giants

As it stands, WITHOUT factoring in the ability scores, those really strong creatures like giants come out accurate. Trust me on that, I've used them.

That's why UK said those factors aren't necessary. By the time they COUNT, the increase in PC CR/PEL balances it out, and the differences are negligible.

You (and he) may well be right in this instance. As I implied in my last post on this subject, having some guide as to what (for example) STR is appropriate at a certain HD or BAB might be better, then charging a cost if it exceeds this.
(I use STR here, because I think of all the stats it has the potential to skew CR's most - but the same would apply to a lesser extent with other stats; CON, for example, and WIS/INT/CHA for spell/supernatural ability based critters.)

 

[demiurgeastaroth]

Re: Re: Re: ECL ability scores and giants

The problem with actually factoring in ability scores comes at Levels 1-3, as I have shown and proven time and again.

All I care about is the subject under discussion, not what you think you have shown and proven before. That just makes you sound frustrated and condescending, which is unfortunate since the points you made were good.

Darren

 

[S'mon]

Re: A few class questions?

Hi all! (U_K here).

Euro Gencon is over for me (for another year presumably). Had a great time today gaming with other ENWorld players and chatting over a few drinks.

...I'll post my synopsis of the event in a day or two (when I get back to Belfast and get my feet up).

Was curious if these enhancements due to Level progression would make their CR higher:

Monks/Barbarian movement
Paladins Immunity to disease
Monks Immunity to poison
Paladins Special Mount (such as pegasus)
Wizards/Sorcerers Familiar (giving them Alertness plus other perks)
Assasins use of poison
Assasins use of death strike
etc.

thanks in advance....

All class features are factored (including all the above).

Essentially I totalled all the class features for a class over 20 levels. Then divided by the number of levels. Then added that number to the method I show in the Design Parameters (for things like HD, BAB, saves etc.) and all the results were between 0.77 and 0.84 per level (except for Clerics and Druids).

So you don't add these things for individual levels, you total them over the full progression then divide.

I must be honest though I didn't rate the Prestige Classes in the DMG. So I can't say for certain if they balance with the core classes or are slightly more powerful.

Typically in rating class features I would try and say to myself "How does this ability compare to a feat". Then rate accordingly.

 

[S'mon]

Upper_Krust.

Hiya mate! (U_K here)

So if the hobgoblins factor racial abilities like darkvision into their CR, then let's take a look at a 2nd level party of four going up against four 2nd level fighter hobgoblins.

The player characters = PEL 2.
Hobgoblins = PEL 9

That's a difference of +7. By your rules, this is near the higher end of a "very difficult/nemesis" encounter.

In truth, those hobgoblins should represent a "moderate/elite footsolder" encounter. They are 1 step above a typical hobgoblin footsoldier. They certainly shouldn't be any stronger than a "difficult/henchmen" encounter. But a nemesis encounter? Not even close.

The 2nd level player characters would net 1800 XP each for this encounter. That's exactly 3 times more XP than the 3rd edition CR/XP system (600 XP) awards for the same encounter!

Again, this is "if" you factor in darkvision.

If you do not, the player characters earn much less XP.

The player character = PEL 2.
Hobgoblins = PEL 5

That's a difference of +3 or 450 XP each. I think that's infinitely more reasonable than 1800 XP, even if and rather because its lower than the WotC amount.

If you still want to factor in racial abilities like darvision for "consistency", then we get back to my original suggestion; calculating PEL as EL.

Hadn't we already ascertained that there was a miscalculation in determining EXP, because a factor had been calculated twice!?

I haven't thrown my weight behind the revision (because I'm on holiday), but I'll get to that in a day or so.

 

[S'mon]

Re: ECL calculation

Hiya mate! (U_K natch)

I just noticed you are from the UK - why weren't you at Gencon mate? Todays ENWorld game (and subsequent fratrenising) was great.

It does (and I hadn't considered that!)...

 

[S'mon]

Re: Re: ECL calculation

<Re: Teleport and Design Parameters>
In what sense?

In the sense that the Design Parameters have the caveat that you can face CR problems if you permit monsters to gain spell-like abilities greater than their Hit Dice treated as a spellcaster.