Revised Challenge Ratings/Encounter Levels (pdf)

[Zaknafein]

racial CR adjustments

U_K I was reffering to monsters out of the MM & MM2 but if it has not been done, no biggie.... I was also curious about Racial bonuses for races such as Human, elf, halfelv, etc. I know humans get a free feat and extra skills.... those would also get added to their new CR modifier, correct?

-in honor zaknafein

 

[demiurgeastaroth]

Re: racial CR adjustments

I was also curious about Racial bonuses for races such as Human, elf, halfelv, etc. I know humans get a free feat and extra skills.... those would also get added to their new CR modifier, correct?

-in honor zaknafein

That's a good point, and relevant to Sonafapreacherman's hobgoblin question.
Probably the best way is to assume that if the base racial CR is 0 or less (ECL 0 races) you ignore things like darkvision etc - assume it all balances out. Humans have their feat and skill points, hobgoblins have their stats and darkvision, etc.

Darren

 

[demiurgeastaroth]

ECL calculation

One major flaw I feel with the system is the idea that ECL can be calculated much the same as CR.
As it stands Fast Healing and Regeneration cost extra if you are designing ECL, butr many other abilities should also be rated higher. Anything spell-like ability which can be used at will is a limited benefit to opponents, since they only get to use them in that encounter (and it's a toss up among which ability or attack to use in a very limited time frame), but for PCs they provide massive flexibility. They may be used repeatedly in the same day, in or out of combat.
Even worse are things like Gaze attacks (and other free actions). An extra quickened spell, raised to an area effect, used every round!

(Monte Cook discusses this at http://www.montecook.com/arch_dmonly11.html)

Personally, I think you should have one set of modifiers for CR, and a completely different set for ECL.

Darren

 

[S'mon]

Hiya mate! (U_K here)

Well I can't speak for anybody else, but I'm still trying to get a definitive answer as to whether or not you mean to add racial CR modifiers (like darkvision) to a monster (like hobgoblins) that advances as a character class (if their total racial modifier does not exceed +0.5)?

...oops sorry, I must have missed your initial probe in all the hubbub.

Personally I think it works both ways, but I think for consistency it might be better to factor it on.

 

[S'mon]

Re: racial CR adjustments

Hello again Zaknafein mate! (U_K here)

U_K I was reffering to monsters out of the MM & MM2 but if it has not been done, no biggie....

I have revised every monster from MM1 and a few of the higher CR monsters from MM2.

Of course the question is how much space do you want to devote to a list of revised CRs...? It would probably take a further two pages to detail all the MM CRs.

I was also curious about Racial bonuses for races such as Human, elf, halfelv, etc. I know humans get a free feat and extra skills.... those would also get added to their new CR modifier, correct?

Yes.

Although since you always round down and the core races always bestow less than +0.5 anyway they generally never need factored to PC CRs.

 

[demiurgeastaroth]

Re: Re: racial CR adjustments

I have revised every monster from MM1 and a few of the higher CR monsters from MM2.

Of course the question is how much space do you want to devote to a list of revised CRs...? It would probably take a further two pages to detail all the MM CRs.

It's a pdf - I vote for the extra pages. We don't have to print them.

 

[demiurgeastaroth]

Re: Re: racial CR adjustments

Though whether or not you do include the full CR list, you might want to change the layout of the currect CR tables a little. I wasn't aware Titans were a subtype of Slaad, or that there were so many golems in the Epic book...

Darren

 

[S'mon]

Re: ECL calculation

Hi demiurgeastaroth mate! (U_K natch)

One major flaw I feel with the system is the idea that ECL can be calculated much the same as CR.

Thats not really the focus of the material but I am sure if I turned my gaze upon it I could sharpen that portion of the system.

As it stands Fast Healing and Regeneration cost extra if you are designing ECL,

Indeed. Primarily because they are time based.

Incidently I may be tweaking Regeneration to return it to parity with Fast Healing. I have also been toying with the idea that Regeneration should actually be supernatural.

butr many other abilities should also be rated higher. Anything spell-like ability which can be used at will is a limited benefit to opponents, since they only get to use them in that encounter (and it's a toss up among which ability or attack to use in a very limited time frame), but for PCs they provide massive flexibility. They may be used repeatedly in the same day, in or out of combat.

The way I have been considering handling this is possibly doubling 'At Will' SLA for ECL. What do you think?

Regarding Spell-like abilities I may also be merging the 'At Will' and 'Always Active' factors. Since the former actually allows you to cast it on another subject as well as practically have it always active.

Even worse are things like Gaze attacks (and other free actions). An extra quickened spell, raised to an area effect, used every round!

I may have rated the base Gaze Attack either 0.4 or 0.8 too low.

It should perhaps be +1.6 or +2.

(Monte Cook discusses this at http://www.montecook.com/arch_dmonly11.html)

I think I have read this article before...

Monte makes some good points but it primarily revolves around WotCs CR rules not mine.

Secondly, a lot of the stuff he points out can easily be gained through spells and magic items something which 3rd Ed. delivers in spades.

Thirdly I already factor ability scores to ECL.

Fourthly, rated by my system, when you factor in PC wealth on top of monster powers they are going to ascend again.

Personally, I think you should have one set of modifiers for CR, and a completely different set for ECL.

I don't think you have to go that far, CR and EL overlap 99% of the time. Its simply that 1% we have to watch out for.

 

[S'mon]

Re: Re: Re: racial CR adjustments

Hello again mate! (U_K)

It's a pdf - I vote for the extra pages. We don't have to print them.

The annoyance for me is that I have actually revised them all not so long ago but a few changes to the CR mods and you have to go back and do the whole thing over again.

Also I would like to keep the Immortals Handbook under a thousand pages, pdf or not.

Though whether or not you do include the full CR list, you might want to change the layout of the currect CR tables a little. I wasn't aware Titans were a subtype of Slaad, or that there were so many golems in the Epic book...

Admittedly thats more a question of trying to squeeze as many in as possible.

I have been toying with the idea of a monster manual (low CRs to high CRs, rather that alphabetical - for the most) is more appropriate but of course this then messes with the Epic CRs (in that its practically a new CR per monster) so I don't know yet what to do for the best.

 

[demiurgeastaroth]

Re: Re: ECL calculation

Hi demiurgeastaroth mate! (U_K natch)
Incidently I may be tweaking Regeneration to return it to parity with Fast Healing. I have also been toying with the idea that Regeneration should actually be supernatural.

I think it probably should, too - that would certainly justify making them equal cost.

<about at will ECL>
The way I have been considering handling this is possibly doubling 'At Will' SLA for ECL. What do you think?

This sounds reasonable (caveat: that's without testing ).
But I think there is a problem with the way the spell-like abilities are costed: the caster level is part of the formula. With many abilities, this may not be appropriate. For spells like teleport, for example, the level makes very little difference once you have the ability.
Only those abilities where the level has a direct effect (damage rolls, spell penetration, and to a much, much lesser effect (especially for multiple use abilities) duration) should this be a factor.
For such abilities, maybe the scroll cost could be a guidelines: use the minimum caster level the ability becomes available.

Quirky Example
Note: Teleport without error at will, +.3 at 13th level ability.
Increase movement by 30': +.3
I know that teleport has a few drawbacks (can't be used to attack in the same turn (unless they take quicken spell-like ability...), but I think it might be worth a lot more than 30' of movement...

Regarding Spell-like abilities I may also be merging the 'At Will' and 'Always Active' factors. Since the former actually allows you to cast it on another subject as well as practically have it always active.

Yes, At Will is for all intents and purposes Always Active - and you get to use it on others. If anything, it should cost more.

I may have rated the base Gaze Attack either 0.4 or 0.8 too low.

It should perhaps be +1.6 or +2.

That's quite a difference Not that I'm arguing.

<about Monte's article>
I think I have read this article before...

Monte makes some good points but it primarily revolves around WotCs CR rules not mine.

That's true, but the points he makes are valid for both even if the method differs.

Secondly, a lot of the stuff he points out can easily be gained through spells and magic items something which 3rd Ed. delivers in spades.

I don't think this is necessarily a strong equipment, especially for equipment, since for every item other players have to supply that power, the monster-character has a free slot (or money not spent on that item) to spend on other things of equal power.

Thirdly I already factor ability scores to ECL.

I'm in the camp that leans towards factoring them into CR...

In the article, you mention that it balances if all other things are treated equally, but I don't think this is the case. One creature may have very high stats (STR and CON being popular) while another has less powerful stats but various spell-like abilities and powers to make up for it.
A large part of the danger posed by giants (for example) comes about entirely because of their high STR and CON (which are usually notably higher than the bonuses gained just from size).

Fourthly, rated by my system, when you factor in PC wealth on top of monster powers they are going to ascend again.

This is true, but on its own is not enough.

I just worked out an Ogre, and his ECL came out at 6 (including 6 levels of equipment). I made a mistake, in that I counted all his stats, including the size increase, so it should be a lower ECL. But assuming 6:

A 10th level Barbarian with 17 STR (including his two raises) and 14 CON would have a BAB of +13, inflict 1d12+4 damage, and has 90 hit points without magic items and feats.
(It's appropriate to ignore them, since they both get equal - or nearly equal - selections and are ikely to pick the same things.)

A 4th level Barbarian Ogre would have STR 27 and CON 18, giving him a BAB of +15, inflicting 1d12+12, and has 79 or 81 hit points (depending on whether he gets the d8 or d12 hit die maximised).

On the face of it, these look roughly comparable. The Ogre hits more often (possibly allowing him to make better use of power attack), does twice as much damage (that ratio will fall once magic weapons are included, but it will still be significantly higher), for the cost of falling after 8 hits as opposed to 9. Plus Reach, benefits with grapples, and all that.

Considering the ECL by the system is probably less than 6, it falls short under the current rules. Admittedly it's only one example, but it's examples like this it has to work for.

<my suggestion of a completely different system>
I don't think you have to go that far, CR and EL overlap 99% of the time. Its simply that 1% we have to watch out for.

Yes, I don't think I meant what I said But I think the number of abilities that require a different total is a lot higher than 1%. (Exactly how much higher, I don't know.)

Darren