Revised Challenge Ratings/Encounter Levels (pdf)

[demiurgeastaroth]

The POINT about the CR/ECL thing with fast healing and regenration is that by increasing the ECL after CR, you're counting the same ability twice!

Or you're counting it once, with different costs.
Fast healing 3 adds 0.3 to CR, and 2.3 to ECL, thus leading to the listed ECL cost of +2 over CR.

Darren

 

[Upper_Krust]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: ECL calculation and Demons

Morning mate!

Of course, chances are the players at this level will have access to True Seeing, negating the mirror images, and most will need to roll a 1 to fail that save, assuming they don't have Mind Blank (accessible at the levels you have the Vrock CR) - or even just Proetction from Evil (or any of that family of spells) - which means the charm automatially fails.

Yes, a player might have Mind Blank cast, a player might have true seeing active, true. But not all.

I'd be happier if they could cast Fire Storm. I mean, Meteor Swarms such a weak 9th level spell.

Indeed. Half the meteor swarm spell should be physical force from the blast impact or somesuch. It would probably also be better to swop the Fire Storm and Meteor Swarm between Balor and Pit Fiend.

In any case, the sorecerer in my group rarely goes anywhere without protection from elements (fire) cast - it is the most common form of energy attack.

But its not so likely that the whole group will have it cast.

But then, they have to somehow avoid the players ability to use See Invisibility or the aforemention True Seeing.

Ambush.

Again, this is one where the saves are likely to need 1 to fail

A 17th-level party wil universally need a '2' or more on their Will saves vs. a Vrock's mass charm!? I can't see it.

(still take some damage, but then the cleric casts mass heal).

Is this the broken version of mass heal they are casting!?

The Unholy Aura is one of the reasons I referred to their high AC earlier; does't help their saves much ,though.

Well it gives them +4, not much I agree though.

However, the attack you cite is FOUR Pit Fiends. By your system, just one is a moderate/challenging encounter for a 24th-27th level group.

If you don't agree with some (or all?) of the CR factors then which of them do you believe overly inflates the Pit Fiends CR?

My 24th level group rolled over three of them, which were using exactly these kind of tactics. (And got direct hits with their meteor swarms in the opening salvo - though they foolishly didn't concentrate on a single character: if they had, it might not have taken out the fighter, and it certainly wouldn't have taken out the sorcerer (that fire protection).)

Those foolish Intelligence 20/Wisdom 20 geniuses you mean.

Their invisibility did cause a bit of confusion, and they did get the cleric to run away thanks to a roll of 1 (which could count as 20% loss of resources I suppose - but remember, they were facing what is regarded as a +4 EL encounter in this system), but the rest prevailed withut much difficulty.

I would be interested in hearing a recount of how the Pit Fiends were subsequently beaten.

Yes, but it will be more balanced (double hit points, has better combat abilities, and most importantly, has better stats with which to use its spell-like abilities - plus a few new abilities like a mass hold spell), so it may deserve it.

We'll see. It should be interesting if nothing else.

 

[kreynolds]

The problem with this argument is this:
You say it's okay for the Ogre CR to be 2, and ECL 5, because ECL and CR are not the same.
But the 10th level Drow ECL and CR must both be 12, because ECL and CR are the same.

There is no problem. You missed the point entirely.

I understand what you're getting at...

I honestly don't think you do, so I'll just let it die there. Maybe if you go back and read that bit about the ogre and drow really carefully, you'll understand it. As is, I think you just gave it a cursory glance.

 

[demiurgeastaroth]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: ECL calculation and Demons

Ambush.
[/B]

If its an attack completely out of the blue, yes. If the players know they are in hostile territory, they'll have such spells already cast.

[/B][/QUoTE]
A 17th-level party wil universally need a '2' or more on their Will saves vs. a Vrock's mass charm!? I can't see it.

Well, 2 might be an exaggeration - but not far off. The 17th level NPC fighter (generally the worst of the will savers) from the DMG needs an 11; give him +5 cloak of resistance (improved on +3), luckstone, a wisdom item (and often better stats, either trhough better starting rolls or wishes, or both) and it looks a lot better.
Ad remember, this is the guy who will be weakest - and again, there's a lot of defences available that will stop that attack dead. The Vrock needs surprise to make it work.

Is this the broken version of mass heal they are casting!?

Actually, the version I've been using heals 100 points.

Well it gives them +4, not much I agree though.

Yes, the problem is their save stats are usually very low, and their HD are also very low compared to other creatures encountered at their CR.

If you don't agree with some (or all?) of the CR factors then which of them do you believe overly inflates the Pit Fiends CR?

I wish I could answer that. Also, the problem I have is less with the top demons/devils, but more with the inermediate ones (like the Vrock, Glabrezu, etc).
I haven't worked out how they are costed, it's just that the final number seems to high - the most obvious thing to think of, for me, is the fact that they have many spell abilities, only a few of which they will get any real mileage out of, and even if all were equally useful, they only have a couple of rounds to use them (or longer, using the hit-and-run tactics for which they are suited - but even that doesn't necessarily take them far).

Those foolish Intelligence 20/Wisdom 20 geniuses you mean.

Yeah, well, they have to operate within the confines of the GMs INT & WIS

I would be interested in hearing a recount of how the Pit Fiends were subsequently beaten.

I struggle to remember the exact order of events, but use of Time Stop (using the variant rule: no targetted spells), the Fighter's Devastating Critical ("Kill the Pit fiend!" Splat! "What Pit fiend? Dammit - No-one else within reach so I lose the rest of my attacks" . Dimensional anchor stopped one from teleporting, so the monk (!) wasted it. The sorcerer had used spectral hand to cohort using spectral hand to drop see invisibility on people, and the other sorcerer has see invisibility cast as a persistent spell.

One of the pit fiends did flee (after terrifying the cleric), once the other two were toast.

We'll see. It should be interesting if nothing else.

Agreed.
Darren

 

[demiurgeastaroth]

I honestly don't think you do, so I'll just let it die there.

Well, we agree that we don't agree. That's something anyway

Darren

 

[Anubis]

In order for a DM to play dragons and super-high INT and WIS creatures correctly, he or she MUST use metagame thinking. There is no way around it. DMs simply can't be as smart as a Prismatic Dragon.

 

[Sonofapreacherman]

Granted, I'm slow when it comes to all this math, but please bear with me...

A party of four standard 1st level characters goes up against four 1st level hobgoblins and defeats them.
The party is rated at CR 1 and weighs in at PEL 1. The hobgoblins are rated at CR 1 (0.9 for NPC fighter class + 0.2 for darkvision) and weigh in at EL 5 (1 + 4 for opponent numbers). The party nets 1200 XP (300 for each party member).

Now cut their numbers in half...

A party of two standard 1st level characters goes up against two 2nd level hobgoblins and defeats them.
The party is rated at CR –1; ¼ (1 –2 for character numbers; 1 --> ½ --> ¼) and weighs in at PEL ¼ (presumably). The hobgoblins are rated at CR 1 (0.9 for NPC fighter class + 0.2 for darkvision) and weigh in at EL 3 (1 + 2 for opponent numbers). The party nets 1200 XP (600 for each party member).

Ah! Now I see the doubling problem that everybody else has been talking about. Took me a while. Yup, I'm a fast one.

My next question is hopefully simple. I assigned a PEL of ¼ to the 1st level characters in my last example. Is that supposed to be possible?

 

[demiurgeastaroth]

In order for a DM to play dragons and super-high INT and WIS creatures correctly, he or she MUST use metagame thinking. There is no way around it. DMs simply can't be as smart as a Prismatic Dragon.

Let's see that dragon write a decent Excel spreadsheet. I know who's smarter

Darren
Not threatened by the size of the dragons... IQ, honest.

 

[Anubis]

Let's see that dragon write a decent Excel spreadsheet. I know who's smarter

Darren
Not threatened by the size of the dragons... IQ, honest.

Given time, resources, and modern technology, I imagine a Prismatic Dragon could developa fusion reactor that powers the entire planet in under a week. The dragon could also probably write an Excel spreadsheet that is beyond your comprehension.

You certainly do underestimate the Int 64 the thing has. Let's put it this way, Albert Einstein, possibly one of the greatest thinkers of the modern world, would likely have Int 20-25, if that. Now consider what someone with Int 64 could do. We're talking about someone beyond human intelligence could EVER be in real life.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: ECL calculation and Demons

Hiya mate!

I wish I could answer that. Also, the problem I have is less with the top demons/devils, but more with the inermediate ones (like the Vrock, Glabrezu, etc).

Maybe there could be a caveat that no monster can have a CR greater than double its Hit Dice, but I hate being so arbitrary.

I haven't worked out how they are costed, it's just that the final number seems to high - the most obvious thing to think of, for me, is the fact that they have many spell abilities, only a few of which they will get any real mileage out of, and even if all were equally useful, they only have a couple of rounds to use them (or longer, using the hit-and-run tactics for which they are suited - but even that doesn't necessarily take them far).

Mmmm, maybe.

One thing I did notice from the Fiend Folio was that changes to the Outsider type, it is reduced to +0.65/HD (rather than +0.7/HD)

I struggle to remember the exact order of events, but use of Time Stop (using the variant rule: no targetted spells), the Fighter's Devastating Critical ("Kill the Pit fiend!" Splat! "What Pit fiend? Dammit - No-one else within reach so I lose the rest of my attacks" . Dimensional anchor stopped one from teleporting, so the monk (!) wasted it. The sorcerer had used spectral hand to cohort using spectral hand to drop see invisibility on people, and the other sorcerer has see invisibility cast as a persistent spell.

One of the pit fiends did flee (after terrifying the cleric), once the other two were toast.

Never have them melee powerful opponents unless they outnumber them.

Devastating Critical is one hell of a feat it must be said. Monk Vorpal feat is broken though.