Revised Challenge Ratings/Encounter Levels (pdf)

[Upper_Krust]

Hello mate!

Actually, I think I messed it up. Are Hussan's physical ability score modifiers accounted for in the Tiny size modifier?

If so, I think he still comes out ahead, but not by as much.

Yes the official size modifiers for ability scores are counted.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

This has me greatly confused. A monster has a CR. A PC has a CR. ECL is a measure of CR.

Not exactly. ECL is a tool designed to balance various races and subtypes with character level, for the most part it does indeed balance with CR, just not with regards Fast Healing and Regeneration.

You state that Fast Healing doesn't affect CR, but it does affect ECL. If this is the case, then it does in indeed effect CR. If ECL goes up, CR goes up, thus Fast Healing affects CR, and it does so to a PC more than it would a monster, which doesn't make sense.

Am I missing something?

You are missing tha fact that Fast Healing/Regeneration work all day every day for PCs both 'in front of camera' and 'behind the scenes' as it were.

Unlike say an always active 'True Seeing' when the PCs are 'behind the scenes' it really doesn't matter that its always active.

Whereas Fast Healing/Regeneration continues to function AND still has a purpose in doing so - restoring lost hit points.

What part?

The part where you don't agree with me.

 

[kreynolds]

This is the basis upon which the CR, EL, and experience system are designed. Everything flows from that.

No. The basis upon which the CR, EL, and experience systems are designed is PL = CR is a moderate encounter that will drain approximately 20% of the parties resources. Anything else, you are adding of your own accord. If the party has fewer than four encounters in a day, the CRs of creatures do not change, the ELs do not change, and the experience given does not change. They simply have fewer encounters against the same creatures and earn less XP than they would have if they had been involved in more encounters.

The DMG even recommends that in situations where players will encounter fewer encounters per day (as in the wilderness), you should increase the EL of those encounters to compensate.

Taking into consideration that you and I already see one passage of the DMG in greatly different contexts, do you happen to have a page number that I can take a look at so that I can see it for myself? I figure that's only fair to the discussion at hand.

Because they do different things. For the bad guy, it bolsters it in a single fight allowing it to last a little bit longer.
For the PCs, it does that, AND allows them to fight more often.

No. You are arbitrarily deciding that a bad guy with fast healing will only have a single fight. You are assuming that he will be defeated and will not fight again. You are assuming that his odds of survival are so much lower than the good guys that having Fast Healing is meaningless. You are assuming that the bad guy won't be able to get into a fight with the good guys, escape, and take some time out to let his Fast Healing heal him, then return and fight the good guys again. When you arbitrarily twist and wrench a system into your favor, naturally, the numbers skew in your favor.

Fast Healing bolsters a PC in and out of a fight. Fast Healing bolsters an NPC in and out of a fight. There is no difference.

The PC will not have a higher CR; he will have a higher ECL. They are two different things.

No. They are the same in certain aspects, the most important of which, I will demonstrate. A 10th level PC fighter has an ECL of 10 and a CR of 10. A 10th level PC drow fighter has an ECL of 12. Now, are you saying that the drow fighter's CR is not 12? If so, you'd be wrong. If not, then I just proved my point. Increasing the ECL of a PC increases that PC's CR by an equal amount. What I have a problem with is Fast Healing increasing a PCs CR by a greater amount than it increases a monster's CR.

Both the NPC and C's ECL ratings would be increased by more than their CR rating, but the ECL rating only matters if the character is a PC, or a companion NPC (a cohort, for example).

This is what I have a problem with; increasing a PCs CR and ECL by a greater amount than an NPCs or creature's CR and ECL, even when they have the exact same resources, simply because one is a PC and one isn't.

The DMG does discuss (n passing; I expect Savage Species goes into more detail) the difference between ECL and CR on page 22, under Variant: Monsters as Races (but uses the term Monster Levels since the term ECL wasn't coined then).

It doesn't matter if you call it ECL or Level Equivalent, as the result is the same. I'll even use the same source that you did. It's a given that a 5th level PC fighter is level equivalent +5. According to the DMG, an ogre PC is level equivalent +5. What you are saying is that they are not the same, and you are grossly in error. A single 5th level fighter and a single ogre are perfectly matched for a 50/50 fight. The only reason the ogre has a CR lower than 5 is because it is assumed that it will be facing not one, but four 5th level characters. My point is that in a 1 on 1 situation, CR does in fact equal ECL/Level Equivalent, yet you are saying that fast healing on the fighter will cost more than it will on the ogre.

 

[kreynolds]

Howdy UK.

Not exactly. ECL is a tool designed to balance various races and subtypes with character level, for the most part it does indeed balance with CR, just not with regards Fast Healing and Regeneration.

Yes, exactly. You are singling out Fast Healing and Regeneration as an exception to the rule, but I don't see how that's possible. Read on to see why I'm having a hard time accepting this.

You are missing tha fact that Fast Healing/Regeneration work all day every day for PCs both 'in front of camera' and 'behind the scenes' as it were.

You are missing the fact that Fast Healing and Regeneration both work all day every day for NPCs and monster both "in front of the camera" and "behind the scenes" as it were. They both benefit the exact amount from both abilities. My point is that you are, either deliberately or inadvertantly, ignoring the fact that both NPCs and monsters benefit from their abilities behind the scenes as well.

If the PCs with Fast Healing survive an encounter without defeating a monster, they will benefit from it "behind the scenes". If a monster with Fast Healing survives an encounter without defeating the PCs, it will benefit from it "behind the scenes". Effectively, because you rate Fast Healing more valuable to a PC than an NPC/monster, you are assuming that no NPC/monster will ever be able to benefit from Fast Healing behind the scenes. That simply is not the case.

Unlike say an always active 'True Seeing' when the PCs are 'behind the scenes' it really doesn't matter that its always active.

Well that depends on what they're doing behind the scenes, now doesn't it?

Whereas Fast Healing/Regeneration continues to function AND still has a purpose in doing so - restoring lost hit points.

It has a function AND still has a purpose no matter who has it, whether it be a PC or an NPC/monster.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: ECL calculation and Demons

Hiya mate!

They can be frustrating, yes, but they just aren't challenging the way others of the same CR tend to be.
At levels where PCs significantly exceed the CR of kobolds, I can harass a group with kobolds to much the same comparatve effect.

Te comparison isn't unreasonable for another reason - most fiends really aren't that sturdy, so they pop up, make a single attack, and hope their powers keep them concealed/etc. for the single round it'll take to waste or nearl waste them. (And that's assuming they use the pre 3.5E haste, which none of them have as natural abilities.)

Try Four mirror imaged Vrocks each casting mass charm At Will on the party.

Try Four improved invisible, unholy aura'd Pit Fiends casting meteor swarm on the party. Then having the four unholy aura'd Gelugons they summoned to cast cone of cold on them.

Demons and Devils are funny critters, in that if you encounter them early, they will wipe the floor with you more than other creatures of a similar CR, because of their high spell resistance and AC. But once a group reaches a levels equal to the CR listed in the MM, they tend to be push overs.

So pushing their UK EL to a higher comparitive level doesn't seem right.
I do know what the DMG definition of a moderate encounter is, as opposed to an easy one, and I don't think demons are it.
But I think the problem here is that demons and devils are pretty badly designed; if thay were more like celestials (having lots of spell abilities in combination with impressive fighting abilities - for the durability it provides), they might be easier to rate.
As it happens, at the levels demons & devils are meant to be a moderate challenge, nearly (and I say nearly, not all) all of each creatures attacks are a waste of time, only good for harrying and distracting purposes.

Caught napping the outsiders can be dispatched with ease, but thats true of any opponent.

But if the new Pit Fiend is anything to go by, this is likely to change for the better in 3.5E.

...of course it will have a higher CR.

 

[demiurgeastaroth]

No. The basis upon which the CR, EL, and experience systems are designed is PL = CR is a moderate encounter that will drain approximately 20% of the parties resources. Anything else, you are adding of your own accord. If the party has fewer than four encounters in a day, the CRs of creatures do not change, the ELs do not change, and the experience given does not change. They simply have fewer encounters against the same creatures and earn less XP than they would have if they had been involved in more encounters.

Except that adventures do tend to push characters to their limit, to challenge players (and beyond, if they're written by Bruce Cordell ). You will get a situation in which the players are likely to face a stream of opponents often in a dungeon, but not exclusively), so the amount of free healing they get between encounters can't be ignored.
Imagine, instead of Fast Healing, it was the ability to regenerate used spell levels, at say 1 a minute. Obviously, this would make such an adventure easier, just as being able to regain hit points without using clerical spells or potions does.

Taking into consideration that you and I already see one passage of the DMG in greatly different contexts, do you happen to have a page number that I can take a look at so that I can see it for myself? I figure that's only fair to the discussion at hand.

I agree with you, it would be fair, but alas I can't find one (dammit) and I'll concede it's not there. I suspect it's another of those logical assumptions:
Imagine you are running a dungeon based adventure. you want the characters to run the risk of failure, so you place several encounters averaging their CR.
Now, you run a wilderness adventure, where you know most days the PCs will not have an encounter, and will rarely have more than one. To similarly challenge the group, you must use higher CR opponents.
Again, this flows naturally from the core assumptions.

No. You are arbitrarily deciding that a bad guy with fast healing will only have a single fight. You are assuming that he will be defeated and will not fight again.

I don't really think that's an arbitrary assumption. It's the standard case. It won't always be that way, but it usually is.

You are assuming that his odds of survival are so much lower than the good guys that having Fast Healing is meaningless.

Given that the standard CR encounter is one in which the PCs lose 20% of their resources, and are expected to win comfortably, again I don't think that's an unreasonable assumption.

When you arbitrarily twist and wrench a system into your favor, naturally, the numbers skew in your favor.

As noted above, I don't think I was arbitrary.

Fast Healing bolsters a PC in and out of a fight. Fast Healing bolsters an NPC in and out of a fight. There is no difference.

But the standard case, is that NPCs (and especially monsters) won't be around for more than that single encounter.
If a villain is driven off, heals himself, and returns to fight again, that is a second encounter - and the PCs might will get experience for both encounters (at least half experience for the first), so the potential increase in CR that the fast healing would give is already accounted for.

No. They are the same in certain aspects, the most important of which, I will demonstrate. A 10th level PC fighter has an ECL of 10 and a CR of 10. A 10th level PC drow fighter has an ECL of 12. Now, are you saying that the drow fighter's CR is not 12?

Lets ignore the Drow, because I don't have their ECL and CR handy (but ISTR they are different).
In any case, it's irrelevant. See the Ogre example, below.

This is what I have a problem with; increasing a PCs CR and ECL by a greater amount than an NPCs or creature's CR and ECL, even when they have the exact same resources, simply because one is a PC and one isn't.

It's not simply because one is a PC and one isn't; it's because one is played continuously and the other isn't. It's just a happy coincidence that PCs are played continuously, and enemies aren't.

It doesn't matter if you call it ECL or Level Equivalent, as the result is the same. I'll even use the same source that you did. It's a given that a 5th level PC fighter is level equivalent +5. According to the DMG, an ogre PC is level equivalent +5. What you are saying is that they are not the same, and you are grossly in error. A single 5th level fighter and a single ogre are perfectly matched for a 50/50 fight. The only reason the ogre has a CR lower than 5 is because it is assumed that it will be facing not one, but four 5th level characters.

The problem with this argument is this:
You say it's okay for the Ogre CR to be 2, and ECL 5, because ECL and CR are not the same.
But the 10th level Drow ECL and CR must both be 12, because ECL and CR are the same.

My point is that in a 1 on 1 situation, CR does in fact equal ECL/Level Equivalent, yet you are saying that fast healing on the fighter will cost more than it will on the ogre.

I understand what you're getting at, but as noted, I disagree. If you still disagree with me, then lets agree to disagree since it doesn't look like we'll find common ground.

Darren

 

[demiurgeastaroth]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: ECL calculation and Demons

Hiya mate!

Try Four mirror imaged Vrocks each casting mass charm At Will on the party.

Of course, chances are the players at this level will have access to True Seeing, negating the mirror images, and most will need to roll a 1 to fail that save, assuming they don't have Mind Blank (accessible at the levels you have the Vrock CR) - or even just Proetction from Evil (or any of that family of spells) - which means the charm automatially fails.

Try Four improved invisible, unholy aura'd Pit Fiends casting meteor swarm on the party.

I'd be happier if they could cast Fire Storm. I mean, Meteor Swarms such a weak 9th level spell.
In any case, the sorecerer in my group rarely goes anywhere without protection from elements (fire) cast - it is the most common form of energy attack.
But then, they have to somehow avoid the players ability to use See Invisibility or the aforemention True Seeing.

Then having the four unholy aura'd Gelugons they summoned to cast cone of cold on them.

Again, this is one where the saves are likely to need 1 to fail (still take some damage, but then the cleric casts mass heal).
The Unholy Aura is one of the reasons I referred to their high AC earlier; does't help their saves much ,though.

However, the attack you cite is FOUR Pit Fiends. By your system, just one is a moderate/challenging encounter for a 24th-27th level group. My 24th level group rolled over three of them, which were using exactly these kind of tactics. (And got direct hits with their meteor swarms in the opening salvo - though they foolishly didn't concentrate on a single character: if they had, it might not have taken out the fighter, and it certainly wouldn't have taken out the sorcerer (that fire protection).)
Their invisibility did cause a bit of confusion, and they did get the cleric to run away thanks to a roll of 1 (which could count as 20% loss of resources I suppose - but remember, they were facing what is regarded as a +4 EL encounter in this system), but the rest prevailed withut much difficulty.

Caught napping the outsiders can be dispatched with ease, but thats true of any opponent.

Yes, but my experience isn't of that sort for the most part.

<about the new Pit Fiend>
...of course it will have a higher CR.

Yes, but it will be more balanced (double hit points, has better combat abilities, and most importantly, has better stats with which to use its spell-like abilities - plus a few new abilities like a mass hold spell), so it may deserve it.

Darren

 

[Anubis]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Fractional CR

I missed that. Let's give it +2 STR

Don't forget the ability scores aren't counted anymore.

Which, since we were talking about using it as PC would be the case.

My point was that usually you simply make a regular character and tack this stuff on. Making an ogre fighter? Put all the ogre stuff on a fighter and then addthe CR as ECL. Simple. I do understand your problem now though.

One thing I end to do with intelligent monsters who have access to societies willing to trae with them, is work out the GP value of the treasure they are supposed to have, and equipm them as an appropriate NPC of a level where they gain that amount of treasure.
Since that paragraphs a bit convoluted, I'll give an example.
A Yuan-ti Pure Blood is a CR5 creature, and gets double treasure: 3200gp. That's roughly what 4th level NPC gets, so I'll give it equipment as a 4th level rogue or something.
(I do recognise this makes them more challenging and up the XP award - one of the things I like about UKs system is it does handle this in the system).
Darren

Well then . . . In that case, an ogre with no class would be CR 4.7, which is still CR 4. Ogre is 4.2 and the average value of a CR 4 treasure is 1200, which translates to Level 5 NPC Wealth. (Remember to use UK's system for this; see the PDF for details.) Anyway, that is worth CR +0.5, which adds up to the CR 4.7, meaning it is still CR 4. For PC ogres, however, the CR/ECL would actually be CR 4.8, becasue that 1200 translates to Level 3 PC Wealth. Anyway, you start with that CR 4.8/ECL 4, giving the PC 2700 wealth, and then tack things on top.

 

[Anubis]

The POINT about the CR/ECL thing with fast healing and regenration is that by increasing the ECL after CR, you're counting the same ability twice!

 

[demiurgeastaroth]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Fractional CR

Don't forget the ability scores aren't counted anymore.

My understanding is that the difference from racial average are counted. So creating an exceptional individual of a race with the standard array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8, wchich translates to +4, +4, +2, +2, +0, -2) would increase the CR by +1; is that right UK?

[Snip my method of granting intelligent & social monsters treasure]

Well then . . . In that case, an ogre with no class would be CR 4.7, which is still CR 4.

I only mentioned that idea in passing - I didn't use it for the example, and wouldn't use it for a PC Trolll. I just thought it was neat enough to share. Others may disagree

Darren