Revised Challenge Ratings/Encounter Levels (pdf)

[Anubis]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Fractional CR

In my example, they were Orc Warriors (as they are in the Monster manual).
NPC class = .8 + .2 for darkvision = 1.

Um, NPC class is worth 0.6, NOT 0.8, see the table. Warriors (their class) is 0.6 per level. Darkvision is 0.2 of course. Total is 0.8, which is CR 0.

Hello mate!

Remember to factor equipment.

I'm talking about the CR/ECL for the ogre itself. Equipment and stuff doesn't come until AFTER you stick classes and such on it.

 

[kreynolds]

Hey kreynolds mate!

Hey UK! Figured I'd provide some feeback (hopefully useful ).

I'm having second thoughts about the notion, I used it a few months go, then removed it, then tried it again, then removed it. Currently I am sceptical about it.

I'm definately skeptical, but read on to see why.

Not really. They are related, but they do not equal each other.

I should have been more clear. That's what I meant, the relationship.

Agreed. As I mentioned about a week ago (in a reply here to demiurgeastaroth) I was thinking simply that At Will/Always Active abilities should simply be doubled for ECL.

What about for CR? Should a monster have it's CR modifier for the at will spell-like ability doubled as well? If not, the PC shouldn't either.

The difference is not that its more useful to the PC, but rather that it affects the campaign more significantly in the hands of PCs.

Actually, I don't think it does. Consider a PC with Fast Healing 1. That PC will very slowly recover hit points in the middle of a fight, but other than that, the ability is not that great. Fast Healing becomes powerful between fights, when the PC can just hang out and heal fairly quickly. In effect, the PC is much harder to beat down over a period of time.

However, consider this; a PC that has just been in combat and has not had time to fully heal will not be at 100% fighting capacity. If a DM wants to throw another fight at that PC, he will have to take into account that the PC is not fully recovered from the previous fight. This effectively increases the EL of the new encounter, and the DM must plan for this. In short, because the PC has not fully recovered from the previous fight, it effects the campaign because the DM has to take that into account.

Basically, I don't see a difference. With PCs that have Fast Healing, a DM doesn't necessarily have to up the EL any more than he would take into account a monster with Fast Healing, as the PCs will simply be at full fighting capacity most of the time. Without Fast Healing, the DM has to take into account that the PCs may not be at full fighting capacity, so he will have to take that into cosideration when planning for a future encounter.

My belief is that special abilities like Fast Healing and Spell-like Abilities do indeed affect the campaign, in a book-keeping sense, but no more so than a monster with the same ability.

Do you know what the only difference is between a monster with a spell-like ability and a PC with a spell-like ability? The PC is around more often. But, is he really? No. The monster is around until its killed, in the background, yes, but he's still around. So, the PC and monster both have an equal amount of power. The only real difference between a PC with a spell-like ability and a monster with a spell-like ability is that you actually see the PC use his spell-like ability. The monster will use its own just as often. You just don't get to see it.

Do you see what I'm getting at?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Fractional CR

Hi Anubis mate!

Um, NPC class is worth 0.6, NOT 0.8, see the table. Warriors (their class) is 0.6 per level. Darkvision is 0.2 of course. Total is 0.8, which is CR 0.

I'm guessing he was using the term 'warrior' generically, and actually meant Orc 'Fighter's.

I'm talking about the CR/ECL for the ogre itself. Equipment and stuff doesn't come until AFTER you stick classes and such on it.

Well I think demiurge was refering to the equipped ECL.

 

[seasong]

Quick question: Racial CRs below 0.5 are ignored for PCs. Does that hold true of the CR is negative?

Or rather, to put that another way, is CR calculation a two-stage process in which you first calculate racial CR (and turn negatives into fractions) and THEN calculate class CR separately and add it to the fraction?

Here's an example:

Hussan the Awakened Monkey

Race: Awakened Monkey
0. Racial Ability Score Modifiers: STR -8, DEX +4, WIS +2, CHA -6 (CR -0.8)
3. HD: Subsumed under class.
5. Movement: 30 ft, 30 ft climb (CR +0.5)
9. Size: Tiny (CR -0.75)

Net CR: -1.05 (1/4th, or close enough)

If I add 2 levels of wizard with wealth (CR +2), do I calculate the whole entity (+2-1.05 = 0.95) or do I treat each item separately (+2 + (-1.05 shifted to 0.25) = 2.25)?

Would Hussan be CR 0.95 or CR 2.25?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey UK! Figured I'd provide some feeback (hopefully useful ).

Hiya mate!

Appreciate the help.

I'm definately skeptical, but read on to see why.

Okay.

I should have been more clear. That's what I meant, the relationship.

Okay.

What about for CR? Should a monster have it's CR modifier for the at will spell-like ability doubled as well? If not, the PC shouldn't either.

I haven't decided yet, but I don't agree with your reasoning.

Actually, I don't think it does. Consider a PC with Fast Healing 1. That PC will very slowly recover hit points in the middle of a fight, but other than that, the ability is not that great. Fast Healing becomes powerful between fights, when the PC can just hang out and heal fairly quickly. In effect, the PC is much harder to beat down over a period of time.

Exactly. As I said, it affects the campaign rather than the CR. Hence its more valuable to the PCs represented by the inflated ECL.

However, consider this; a PC that has just been in combat and has not had time to fully heal will not be at 100% fighting capacity. If a DM wants to throw another fight at that PC, he will have to take into account that the PC is not fully recovered from the previous fight. This effectively increases the EL of the new encounter, and the DM must plan for this. In short, because the PC has not fully recovered from the previous fight, it effects the campaign because the DM has to take that into account.

Basically, I don't see a difference. With PCs that have Fast Healing, a DM doesn't necessarily have to up the EL any more than he would take into account a monster with Fast Healing, as the PCs will simply be at full fighting capacity most of the time. Without Fast Healing, the DM has to take into account that the PCs may not be at full fighting capacity, so he will have to take that into cosideration when planning for a future encounter.

My belief is that special abilities like Fast Healing and Spell-like Abilities do indeed affect the campaign, in a book-keeping sense, but no more so than a monster with the same ability.

Do you know what the only difference is between a monster with a spell-like ability and a PC with a spell-like ability? The PC is around more often. But, is he really? No. The monster is around until its killed, in the background, yes, but he's still around. So, the PC and monster both have an equal amount of power. The only real difference between a PC with a spell-like ability and a monster with a spell-like ability is that you actually see the PC use his spell-like ability. The monster will use its own just as often. You just don't get to see it.

Do you see what I'm getting at?

Yes, but I don't agree with your reasoning.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya seasong mate!

Quick question: Racial CRs below 0.5 are ignored for PCs. Does that hold true of the CR is negative?

Or rather, to put that another way, is CR calculation a two-stage process in which you first calculate racial CR (and turn negatives into fractions) and THEN calculate class CR separately and add it to the fraction?

Here's an example:

Hussan the Awakened Monkey

Race: Awakened Monkey
0. Racial Ability Score Modifiers: STR -8, DEX +4, WIS +2, CHA -6 (CR -0.8)
3. HD: Subsumed under class.
5. Movement: 30 ft, 30 ft climb (CR +0.5)
9. Size: Tiny (CR -0.75)

Net CR: -1.05 (1/4th, or close enough)

If I add 2 levels of wizard with wealth (CR +2), do I calculate the whole entity (+2-1.05 = 0.95) or do I treat each item separately (+2 + (-1.05 shifted to 0.25) = 2.25)?

Would Hussan be CR 0.95 or CR 2.25?

Personally I would say CR 0.95.

 

[seasong]

Personally I would say CR 0.95.

Actually, I think I messed it up. Are Hussan's physical ability score modifiers accounted for in the Tiny size modifier?

If so, I think he still comes out ahead, but not by as much.

 

[kreynolds]

As I said, it affects the campaign rather than the CR. Hence its more valuable to the PCs represented by the inflated ECL.

This has me greatly confused. A monster has a CR. A PC has a CR. ECL is a measure of CR. You state that Fast Healing doesn't affect CR, but it does affect ECL. If this is the case, then it does in indeed effect CR. If ECL goes up, CR goes up, thus Fast Healing affects CR, and it does so to a PC more than it would a monster, which doesn't make sense.

Am I missing something?

Yes, but I don't agree with your reasoning.

What part?

 

[Anubis]

Hey UK! Figured I'd provide some feeback (hopefully useful ).



I'm definately skeptical, but read on to see why.



I should have been more clear. That's what I meant, the relationship.



What about for CR? Should a monster have it's CR modifier for the at will spell-like ability doubled as well? If not, the PC shouldn't either.



Actually, I don't think it does. Consider a PC with Fast Healing 1. That PC will very slowly recover hit points in the middle of a fight, but other than that, the ability is not that great. Fast Healing becomes powerful between fights, when the PC can just hang out and heal fairly quickly. In effect, the PC is much harder to beat down over a period of time.

However, consider this; a PC that has just been in combat and has not had time to fully heal will not be at 100% fighting capacity. If a DM wants to throw another fight at that PC, he will have to take into account that the PC is not fully recovered from the previous fight. This effectively increases the EL of the new encounter, and the DM must plan for this. In short, because the PC has not fully recovered from the previous fight, it effects the campaign because the DM has to take that into account.

Basically, I don't see a difference. With PCs that have Fast Healing, a DM doesn't necessarily have to up the EL any more than he would take into account a monster with Fast Healing, as the PCs will simply be at full fighting capacity most of the time. Without Fast Healing, the DM has to take into account that the PCs may not be at full fighting capacity, so he will have to take that into cosideration when planning for a future encounter.

My belief is that special abilities like Fast Healing and Spell-like Abilities do indeed affect the campaign, in a book-keeping sense, but no more so than a monster with the same ability.

Do you know what the only difference is between a monster with a spell-like ability and a PC with a spell-like ability? The PC is around more often. But, is he really? No. The monster is around until its killed, in the background, yes, but he's still around. So, the PC and monster both have an equal amount of power. The only real difference between a PC with a spell-like ability and a monster with a spell-like ability is that you actually see the PC use his spell-like ability. The monster will use its own just as often. You just don't get to see it.

Do you see what I'm getting at?

I think I understand what kreynolds is saying, and he's right. Fast healing, regeneration, and SLAs only SEEM more useful to PCs. In FACT, they are not. In determining challenges for CR and EL and PL and PEL and all, it is ALWAYS *assumed* that "BOTH SIDES ARE FRESH". Therefore, ANYTHING that happens between combats is irrelevent and NOT part of the equation.

Since challenges assume two fresh 100% sides, you can't take things that happen outside combat into consideration when determining such things. Therefore, the ability to use fast healing, regeration, and SLAs more often is a moot point!

Do I got it? I think so.

 

[kreynolds]

Do I got it?

Dead on.