Revised Challenge Ratings/Encounter Levels (pdf)

[Upper_Krust]

FINALLY...THE KRUST HAS COME BACK...TO BEL...FAST!

...and of course its lashing with rain as soon as I get off the plane.

Normal service will resume shortly.

 

[demiurgeastaroth]

FINALLY...THE KRUST HAS COME BACK...TO BEL...FAST!

...and of course its lashing with rain as soon as I get off the plane.

Normal service will resume shortly.

You mean that's not normal service for Belfast? Oh, I see what you mean

Darren

 

[Anubis]

Re: Re: Re: Fractional CR

You use the goblin encounter, but picking critters which work out at CR 1 would be a better example.
Lets pick a few.
Orcs as 1st level warriors & darkvision are CR1.
Gnolls (2HD creatures) are CR 1.4
Wolf (2HD creature with trip attack) are CR1.7.

I think some of these are worth more than others to a first level group, especially if encountered in numbers.

Darren

Not to nitpick, but the orcs are CR 1/2 by the system. 0.6 + 0.2 = 0.8, which means CR 0 which translates to CR 1/2. Remember to always round down.

As for fractional CRs, the problem there is when you have multiple creatures. That's why franctional CRs above the first whole number should never be in any such system.

 

[demiurgeastaroth]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Fractional CR

Not to nitpick, but the orcs are CR 1/2 by the system. 0.6 + 0.2 = 0.8, which means CR 0 which translates to CR 1/2. Remember to always round down.

In my example, they were Orc Warriors (as they are in the Monster manual).
NPC class = .8 + .2 for darkvision = 1.

As for fractional CRs, the problem there is when you have multiple creatures. That's why franctional CRs above the first whole number should never be in any such system.

You don't have a problem. Multiple creatures add to EL not CR.
Say you have a CR 1.5 critter which wuld become EL3.
Then you have two of them: +2 EL = EL5.
It works just the same as normal.


Darren

 

[Sonofapreacherman]

Fractional CR

You don't have a problem. Multiple creatures add to EL not CR.
Say you have a CR 1.5 critter which would become EL3.
Then you have two of them: +2 EL = EL5.
It works just the same as normal.

Indeed it does. I found myself doing this exact same thing in searching for some way to lower the inflated XP rewards.

Let me also say that I love levels 1 through 3. They are my favorite to play. The mundane struggle is far more compelling than upper-to-epic level adventures. The super-powers available to characters at those levels have never been a draw for me. I know many experienced gamers who feel the same way.

Therefore, this CR system should definitely award proportionate XP at all levels.

To simply rationalize those lower levels away is no better than WotC overlooking the insignificant difference between a 100th and 101st level character (which I believe prompted this CR system in the first place).

 

[Upper_Krust]

Re: Re: Re: Re: ECL calculation and Demons

Hello mate!

I don't think that's the mistake I'm making. I see the levels that the demons are supposed to be moderate challenges for in this system, and I think they would be easy meat at those levels.

Moderate means the PCs should win comfortably.

Try the same monster as a difficult challenge to gauge challenge rating properly.

The Vrock, Hezrou and Glabrezu (to pick three examples), with CR16-19, are suitable challenges for a level 16-19 group by your numbers. I think a level 16-19 group will walk through these almost without breaking a sweat.

Have the demons equal the number of PCs and use hit and run tactics and then see how tough they can be.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: ECL ability scores and giants

Hello mate!

The ECL of an ogre is the same as its CR: 4.

Remember to factor equipment.

 

[kreynolds]

UK,

Got another question for ya'. I've been thinking about what you said in regards to PCs having spell-like abilities. You stated that the base CR/ECL modifier is 0.2 x highest level spell-like ability (or something along those lines). If a PC had a spell-like ability, 9th level spell as though cast by an 18th level sorcerer, useable once per day, the CR/ECL modifier would be +2 (1.881).

Your system touts that CR = ECL. That they are one and the same. Yet here, a single 9th level spell, once per day, is as costly as two wizard or sorcerer levels. Why is that? That doesn't seem right. I could understand the higher modifier if the creature had fewer than 18 hit die (the number of levels required for a sorcerer to be able to cast 9th level spells), but I can't understand that across the board. It just seems awfully high.

The same also applies to Fast Healing and Regeneration. Why should it cost more for a PC? Some like to say "Well, its because its a lot more useful for a PC.". But is it? I think its no more useful to a PC than it is to a monster. Both are harder to kill, thus the CR adjustment, yet in your system, PCs get a higher adjustment for having the same exact abilities that a monster would have.

Is this really how its supposed to work? Thanks for your time, by the way.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Re: Fractional CR

Hiya mate!

For CRs below 4, each CR provides a wide range. Have you thought about using fractional levels at this range, so that each EL has a corresponding CR, as in:

CR EL
1 1
1.25 2
1.5 3
1.75 4
2 5
2.5 6
3 7
3.5 8
4 9

Or is there a good reason not to?

Nope, I just didn't flesh the idea out in the table.

Sonofapreacherman mentions a problem about 1st level character experience (which is a separate problem from the Group factor being counted twice in XP).
UK counters with the fragility of low level characters.
It is true that low level characters are fragile, but that doesn't mean they should get awards so high that groups don't spend any time at that level.
The progression used in the DMG also breaks down at low levels, so that levels 1-2 are treated the same as level 3 for experience.

The fragility ups the risks. Hence the EXP factor.

My suggestion for dealing with this problem:
Treat a team of level 1 PCs as having an EL of 3, rather than 1.
This doesn't alter the monsters (a monster with CR1 still has an EL1) but reduces the high gains of low level.

I don't like the idea of making arbitrary judgement calls.

Actually, to be closer the monster manual (where level 2 groups get 1.5x the experience of 3rd level groups, and 1st level characters get 3x the exp of 3rd level groups), the ELs of low leel groups should be:
3rd level: EL 7
2nd level: EL 6
1st level: EL 4
(Or you could make that last one EL5 just to keep a neat progression.)
These would be just used for giving out XP awards, not for determining the challenge of encounters.

Now, two hobgoblins (EL7) would be worth 1800xp under the first system, and 900xp under the second, to a team of 1st level characters. (As opposed to 1350xp according to the DMG).

I don't plan on changing the CR/EL relationship.

Therefore the solution will definately be something other than that.

[Edited to wonder: but are those 2 level 2 hobgoblins EL9?]

No.

 

[Upper_Krust]

UK,

Hey kreynolds mate!

Got another question for ya'. I've been thinking about what you said in regards to PCs having spell-like abilities. You stated that the base CR/ECL modifier is 0.2 x highest level spell-like ability (or something along those lines). If a PC had a spell-like ability, 9th level spell as though cast by an 18th level sorcerer, useable once per day, the CR/ECL modifier would be +2 (1.881).

I'm having second thoughts about the notion, I used it a few months go, then removed it, then tried it again, then removed it. Currently I am sceptical about it.

Your system touts that CR = ECL. That they are one and the same.

Not really. They are related, but they do not equal each other.

Yet here, a single 9th level spell, once per day, is as costly as two wizard or sorcerer levels. Why is that? That doesn't seem right. I could understand the higher modifier if the creature had fewer than 18 hit die (the number of levels required for a sorcerer to be able to cast 9th level spells), but I can't understand that across the board. It just seems awfully high.

Agreed. As I mentioned about a week ago (in a reply here to demiurgeastaroth) I was thinking simply that At Will/Always Active abilities should simply be doubled for ECL.

The same also applies to Fast Healing and Regeneration. Why should it cost more for a PC? Some like to say "Well, its because its a lot more useful for a PC.". But is it? I think its no more useful to a PC than it is to a monster. Both are harder to kill, thus the CR adjustment, yet in your system, PCs get a higher adjustment for having the same exact abilities that a monster would have.

The difference is not that its more useful to the PC, but rather that it affects the campaign more significantly in the hands of PCs.

Is this really how its supposed to work?

see above

Thanks for your time, by the way.

No problem mate, you know that.